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Islam and first cousin marriages
#11
RE: Islam and first cousin marriages
(April 25, 2017 at 11:52 am)Alex K Wrote: I was always under the impression from what I had heard that the effect wasn't so large at least for the occasional first cousin marriage. I remain sceptical...

It was my understanding that first cousin coupling doesn't seem, in and of itself, to give too high a risk of increased birth defects [Technically, it does seem to double it, but given that it's a doubling from 2% to 4%, it doesn't seem a terribly large risk].

However, it's very difficult for me to believe that a long-term cycle of cousin coupling won't end in genetic disaster:

[Image: Ka90m.jpg]

This is the pedigree of King Charles II of Spain, the results of over a century of exclusive inbreeding, with most of his ancestors coming back to one woman: Queen Joanna. If that wasn't bad enough, Joanna's nickname was "Joanna the Mad." The last child in his pedigree born with outside DNA, his great-grandomother/great-great-grandmother/likely other relationships Maria Anna of Barvaria was born 110 years before him. Geneticists say his genome was likely more homozygous than the child of two siblings.

You can look for more information on the genetic freakshow that was Carlos Segundo on Wikipedia, but here's the short version: he had an excessively long underbite so long he could barely chew, did not learn to speak until the age of four (and even then could barely be understood due to his oversized tongue) or walk until the age of eight. He wasn't expected to go to school or even keep clean (although half-brother John of Austria eventually convinced him to at least comb his hair). By the end, in the words of a doctor performing his autopsy, his body "did not contain a single drop of blood; his heart was the size of a peppercorn; his lungs corroded; his intestines rotten and gangrenous; he had a single testicle, black as coal, and his head was full of water."

Granted, it's a bit more extreme than the situation with Islamic inbreeding, but it's not hard to see how a long-term cycle of first cousin marriages would lead to bad consequences.

In Gone With the Wind, it's said "The Wilkes and Hamiltons always marry their own cousins." One shudders to see what the Wilkes family would have ended up like after all this time.
Comparing the Universal Oneness of All Life to Yo Mama since 2010.

[Image: harmlesskitchen.png]

I was born with the gift of laughter and a sense the world is mad.
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#12
RE: Islam and first cousin marriages
(April 25, 2017 at 1:04 pm)paulpablo Wrote: I think in the uk where I'm from it would be a mainly Muslim issue, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was a Christian issue in other places.

It's really common for Pakistanis to still have arranged marriages, at least 3 or 4 Pakistanis who I work with are having arranged marriages and it's another one of those things that isn't really common outside of Islam in the modern day UK.

It might not even be a Muslim issue but more of a Pakistani issue since I don't know if it applies to Indians, Africans and other Muslims.
Most of the people I know who are of pakistani descent are hindu, but none of them afaik have married cousins. But then again they are from a relatively large hindu community (Leicester).
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#13
RE: Islam and first cousin marriages
(April 25, 2017 at 1:14 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote:
(April 25, 2017 at 11:52 am)Alex K Wrote: I was always under the impression from what I had heard that the effect wasn't so large at least for the occasional first cousin marriage. I remain sceptical...

However, it's very difficult for me to believe that a long-term cycle of cousin coupling won't end in genetic disaster:

Hell, just ask the Targaryens .
In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty.
- Thomas Jefferson
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#14
RE: Islam and first cousin marriages
(April 25, 2017 at 1:19 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote:
(April 25, 2017 at 1:14 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote: However, it's very difficult for me to believe that a long-term cycle of cousin coupling won't end in genetic disaster:

Hell, just ask the Targaryens .

Of course, I did discuss a real-life case of it, and one more extreme. Say what you will about the Targaryens, their inbreeding has only made them mad. It hasn't turned them into abominations that make people scratch their heads over their continued existence.
Comparing the Universal Oneness of All Life to Yo Mama since 2010.

[Image: harmlesskitchen.png]

I was born with the gift of laughter and a sense the world is mad.
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#15
RE: Islam and first cousin marriages
If the passed on genetic defect is lethal or severely debilitating, that individual is effectively removed from the gene pool. 

In Brave New World speak, if they want to become deltas, let them become deltas.
I don't have an anger problem, I have an idiot problem.
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#16
RE: Islam and first cousin marriages
Quote:Brian37 Wrote:
So, I was talking about even our modern era even outside Islam. The idea of teens getting bartered between families still exists elsewhere. Even if the sex is illegal, some sects of LDS still promise the girl to a man even if the man legally has to wait. 

Child brides or giving away a child to someone still exists even in poor parts of Asia. The concept of your parents deciding whom you marry also exist in India depending on the individual family with Hindu's and Sikhs.

Again, if you think that is unique to Islam do a google search on America's state laws on the age of consent, and also Mexico, Central America and South America. 

Yes in breading does cause birth defects, but again, while most of the west frowns upon it, age of consent ranges widely and causes far more unwanted pregnancies and social diseases in poor countries in the Americas and Africa. 

Yes go after Islam, but don't pretend it is the only religion that has followers who have not caught up with the times.

Nowhere did I suggest that Islam is the only religion or culture to have such problems and I understand where you are coming from. But this looks like a false equivalency to me. It's like saying that Canada and the US both have the same issue with gun violence because there are also some shootings in Canada. 
The rates of consanguineous marriages in the entire Middle east and in Islamic immigrant communities are incredibly high by any standard and millions are affected. The rates of birth defect and infant mortality are nothing to be ignored just so as not to offend.

Since the thread is about first cousin marriages and their current prevalence in the Islamic world, it seems like an unnecessary distraction from this issue to bring up other problems that are affecting other cultures. Not that I'm disagreeing with anyones take on these other problems, I just don't see how pointing out these other problems provides any insight into the issue raised here. 

No doubt people are uncomfortable with highlighting the issue of inbreeding. No doubt it's a touchy subject, but that is no reason to avoid the subject.
So far I've heard that it used to be a problem in antiquity. First cousin marriages aren't that bad (not from you) and that other cultures also have other problems and it is implied that worrying about this problem is just being unfair to Muslims.

This sure looks like a very serious problem affecting millions and millions of people and that it is a difficult problem to raise. If we have trouble discussing it in an atheist forum, what chance is there that any public figure will touch it with a ten foot pole?
If god was real he wouldn't need middle men to explain his wants or do his bidding.
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#17
RE: Islam and first cousin marriages
Quote:ukatheist Wrote:
Most of the people I know who are of pakistani descent are hindu, but none of them afaik have married cousins. But then again they are from a relatively large hindu community (Leicester).

I've surprised to hear that. The reason for the partitioning of India in 1947 was to create separate Hindu and Islamic states with Pakistan being the Islamic state.
Today, Pakistan is still about 97% Muslim with the remaining 3% divided mostly between Christian and Hindus.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Pakistan

Edit:
Ok, should have been obvious, but Hindu Pakistanis are facing religious persecution and discrimination in the majority Muslim nation. No surprise they emigrate. 
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-34645370
If god was real he wouldn't need middle men to explain his wants or do his bidding.
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#18
RE: Islam and first cousin marriages
Amish in the US are all descended from a relatively small number of people, they are experiencing a dire level of consanguineously caused birth defects too.
 The granting of a pardon is an imputation of guilt, and the acceptance a confession of it. 




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#19
RE: Islam and first cousin marriages
(April 25, 2017 at 9:34 pm)vorlon13 Wrote: Amish in the US are all descended from a relatively small number of people, they are experiencing a dire level of consanguineously caused birth defects too.

And at least they have the excuse of not having a lot of options for who they reproduce with.
Comparing the Universal Oneness of All Life to Yo Mama since 2010.

[Image: harmlesskitchen.png]

I was born with the gift of laughter and a sense the world is mad.
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#20
RE: Islam and first cousin marriages
[Image: tumblr_magn0m1xho1r6bq5ho1_500.gif]

He said, after his conversion to Islam.
"Every luxury has a deep price. Every indulgence, a cosmic cost. Each fiber of pleasure you experience causes equivalent pain somewhere else. This is the first law of emodynamics [sic]. Joy can be neither created nor destroyed. The balance of happiness is constant.

Fact: Every time you eat a bite of cake, someone gets horsewhipped.

Facter: Every time two people kiss, an orphanage collapses.

Factest: Every time a baby is born, an innocent animal is severely mocked for its physical appearance. Don't be a pleasure hog. Your every smile is a dagger. Happiness is murder.

Vote "yes" on Proposition 1321. Think of some kids. Some kids."
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