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RE: Sin and the Blame Game
June 7, 2017 at 1:49 am
(May 30, 2017 at 10:42 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: I'm interested in getting the Christian perspective on my thoughts below. I've posed them within threads before, but have yet to come across a counter POV. (I'm sure I'll get plenty here. [emoji41])
If God knew inherently from the "moment" he decided to create humanity that we could never possibly satisfy his ideal, and went ahead with his creation anyway, then he:
1. failed to fulfill his ideal, and therefore isn't omnipotent.
2. is wholly responsible for the failure.
How could we, as the flawed creation, possibly bear any of the responsibility for our shortcomings? If I leave my 2-year-old alone in front of plate-full of cookies with instructions not to touch, and he eats one, is it just of me to punish him afterward? I knew ahead of time the inherent "nature" of my toddler does not allow for that degree of impulse control. I have set him up to fail. Is it reasonable to hold him responsible for his disobedience?
On the other hand, if there was ever a "time" when God envisioned a particular outcome for humanity, but things unfolded differently than he originally intended, then he's not omniscient.
My understanding of the Christian narrative is that free will was always part of God's plan for humanity. So, God purposefully rigged humans with a wild card, and then blamed us when the wild card played out exactly as he knew it would? And further, he manipulated us into believing it was our fault we failed to live up to his expectations, when in fact, it could have gone no other way. He set up a thinly veiled "test" of righteousness that he knew full well Adam and Eve couldn't pass, and then used the result to lay life-long blame, guilt, and shame onto all of humanity.
From where I sit, these actions not only call god's supposed Omni-attributes into question, they do not seem to me the actions and decisions of what most would reasonably consider a "just being". Thoughts?
I sum it up like this:
If God knew exactly what we would do with our "free will" given any initial conditions and then actualized the initial conditions of his choosing, then he is the cause of all good and all bad.
If God created sentient beings not knowing what they would "freely choose" to do, then he is quite reckless and the blame still lies with him.
As a disclaimer, I find the notion of "free will" to be fundamentally nonsensical.
Jesus is like Pinocchio. He's the bastard son of a carpenter. And a liar. And he wishes he was real.
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RE: Sin and the Blame Game
June 7, 2017 at 7:57 am
(May 30, 2017 at 10:42 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: I'm interested in getting the Christian perspective on my thoughts below. I've posed them within threads before, but have yet to come across a counter POV. (I'm sure I'll get plenty here. [emoji41])
If God knew inherently from the "moment" he decided to create humanity that we could never possibly satisfy his ideal, and went ahead with his creation anyway, then he:
1. failed to fulfill his ideal, and therefore isn't omnipotent.
2. is wholly responsible for the failure.
How could we, as the flawed creation, possibly bear any of the responsibility for our shortcomings? If I leave my 2-year-old alone in front of plate-full of cookies with instructions not to touch, and he eats one, is it just of me to punish him afterward? I knew ahead of time the inherent "nature" of my toddler does not allow for that degree of impulse control. I have set him up to fail. Is it reasonable to hold him responsible for his disobedience?
On the other hand, if there was ever a "time" when God envisioned a particular outcome for humanity, but things unfolded differently than he originally intended, then he's not omniscient.
My understanding of the Christian narrative is that free will was always part of God's plan for humanity. So, God purposefully rigged humans with a wild card, and then blamed us when the wild card played out exactly as he knew it would? And further, he manipulated us into believing it was our fault we failed to live up to his expectations, when in fact, it could have gone no other way. He set up a thinly veiled "test" of righteousness that he knew full well Adam and Eve couldn't pass, and then used the result to lay life-long blame, guilt, and shame onto all of humanity.
From where I sit, these actions not only call god's supposed Omni-attributes into question, they do not seem to me the actions and decisions of what most would reasonably consider a "just being". Thoughts?
Assume that God is omniscient, and so when contemplating creation saw with certainty that mankind could not be created in a way in which he would live up to God's requirements (I don't care if you say that means he's not omnipotent). What in your opinion should God have done in that situation? Why?
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Sin and the Blame Game
June 7, 2017 at 8:05 am
(This post was last modified: June 7, 2017 at 8:09 am by LadyForCamus.)
(June 7, 2017 at 7:57 am)alpha male Wrote: (May 30, 2017 at 10:42 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: I'm interested in getting the Christian perspective on my thoughts below. I've posed them within threads before, but have yet to come across a counter POV. (I'm sure I'll get plenty here. [emoji41])
If God knew inherently from the "moment" he decided to create humanity that we could never possibly satisfy his ideal, and went ahead with his creation anyway, then he:
1. failed to fulfill his ideal, and therefore isn't omnipotent.
2. is wholly responsible for the failure.
How could we, as the flawed creation, possibly bear any of the responsibility for our shortcomings? If I leave my 2-year-old alone in front of plate-full of cookies with instructions not to touch, and he eats one, is it just of me to punish him afterward? I knew ahead of time the inherent "nature" of my toddler does not allow for that degree of impulse control. I have set him up to fail. Is it reasonable to hold him responsible for his disobedience?
On the other hand, if there was ever a "time" when God envisioned a particular outcome for humanity, but things unfolded differently than he originally intended, then he's not omniscient.
My understanding of the Christian narrative is that free will was always part of God's plan for humanity. So, God purposefully rigged humans with a wild card, and then blamed us when the wild card played out exactly as he knew it would? And further, he manipulated us into believing it was our fault we failed to live up to his expectations, when in fact, it could have gone no other way. He set up a thinly veiled "test" of righteousness that he knew full well Adam and Eve couldn't pass, and then used the result to lay life-long blame, guilt, and shame onto all of humanity.
From where I sit, these actions not only call god's supposed Omni-attributes into question, they do not seem to me the actions and decisions of what most would reasonably consider a "just being". Thoughts?
Assume that God is omniscient, and so when contemplating creation saw with certainty that mankind could not be created in a way in which he would live up to God's requirements (I don't care if you say that means he's not omnipotent). What in your opinion should God have done in that situation? Why?
Being a supposedly reasonable and fair dude, He should have lightened up a bit on those requirements once he realized they were unattainable, and maybe cooled it with the whole, 'torture as punishment' thing.
If I find out my unborn baby has a mental disability, but I decide to continue on with the pregnancy, is fair to beat the kid and disown him when he doesn't get into Harvard law?
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”
Wiser words were never spoken.
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RE: Sin and the Blame Game
June 7, 2017 at 8:26 am
(June 7, 2017 at 7:57 am)alpha male Wrote: (May 30, 2017 at 10:42 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: I'm interested in getting the Christian perspective on my thoughts below. I've posed them within threads before, but have yet to come across a counter POV. (I'm sure I'll get plenty here. [emoji41])
If God knew inherently from the "moment" he decided to create humanity that we could never possibly satisfy his ideal, and went ahead with his creation anyway, then he:
1. failed to fulfill his ideal, and therefore isn't omnipotent.
2. is wholly responsible for the failure.
How could we, as the flawed creation, possibly bear any of the responsibility for our shortcomings? If I leave my 2-year-old alone in front of plate-full of cookies with instructions not to touch, and he eats one, is it just of me to punish him afterward? I knew ahead of time the inherent "nature" of my toddler does not allow for that degree of impulse control. I have set him up to fail. Is it reasonable to hold him responsible for his disobedience?
On the other hand, if there was ever a "time" when God envisioned a particular outcome for humanity, but things unfolded differently than he originally intended, then he's not omniscient.
My understanding of the Christian narrative is that free will was always part of God's plan for humanity. So, God purposefully rigged humans with a wild card, and then blamed us when the wild card played out exactly as he knew it would? And further, he manipulated us into believing it was our fault we failed to live up to his expectations, when in fact, it could have gone no other way. He set up a thinly veiled "test" of righteousness that he knew full well Adam and Eve couldn't pass, and then used the result to lay life-long blame, guilt, and shame onto all of humanity.
From where I sit, these actions not only call god's supposed Omni-attributes into question, they do not seem to me the actions and decisions of what most would reasonably consider a "just being". Thoughts?
Assume that God is omniscient, and so when contemplating creation saw with certainty that mankind could not be created in a way in which he would live up to God's requirements (I don't care if you say that means he's not omnipotent). What in your opinion should God have done in that situation? Why?
The same thing most everyone else does. Grow as an individual into accepting different things about people, and that it's ok for other people to do things you don't like, as long as they aren't hurting anyone. Most Humans can find ways to get along with each other, despite having different interests and lifestyles, in mutually constructive ways. That's how society functions. It doesn't mean you're giving up on your morals when everyone in the world doesn't revolve their lives around you. Part of how social creatures work is that people who act like your god are inevitably abandoned, and left behind, out of necessity.
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RE: Sin and the Blame Game
June 7, 2017 at 8:27 am
(June 7, 2017 at 8:05 am)LadyForCamus Wrote: Being a supposedly reasonable and fair dude,
Huh? You make a thread saying that god is unreasonable and unfair, then start this response with the premise that he's supposedly reasonable and fair? That makes no sense.
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RE: Sin and the Blame Game
June 7, 2017 at 8:32 am
(This post was last modified: June 7, 2017 at 8:33 am by The Grand Nudger.)
Yes, it makes no sense........that's the point. Do you think that god is reasonable and fair? Are those actions the actions of a reasonable and fair entity? In the example that Camus has offered, would you describe the parent of the child as "reasonable and fair"?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Sin and the Blame Game
June 7, 2017 at 11:05 am
(June 2, 2017 at 6:31 pm)Lek Wrote: (June 2, 2017 at 6:10 pm)Khemikal Wrote: All the christians.... and god's holy book..... tell me so, how else?
They don't know the bible then because nothing the bible says that. People have come to Christ on their death beds. What was their reason for saying you had no pathway to God?
Christians claim all sorts of things that are not in the bible. From their "personal relationships" with god.
"The last superstition of the human mind is the superstition that religion in itself is a good thing." - Samuel Porter Putnam
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RE: Sin and the Blame Game
June 7, 2017 at 12:12 pm
Unfortunately for me and my eternal soul...this one is in the bible. 
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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Sin and the Blame Game
June 7, 2017 at 5:38 pm
(This post was last modified: June 7, 2017 at 5:52 pm by LadyForCamus.)
(June 7, 2017 at 8:27 am)alpha male Wrote: (June 7, 2017 at 8:05 am)LadyForCamus Wrote: Being a supposedly reasonable and fair dude,
Huh? You make a thread saying that god is unreasonable and unfair, then start this response with the premise that he's supposedly reasonable and fair? That makes no sense.
I seriously believe you have reading comprehension issues, alpha. I'm not even trying to be snarky.
Yes...supposedly reasonable and fair according to Christians. That's the assertion. And what followed was my answer to your question which was: what do I think god should have done, assuming for the sake of the argument that this assertion is true.
Got it...?
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”
Wiser words were never spoken.
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RE: Sin and the Blame Game
June 7, 2017 at 6:06 pm
(May 31, 2017 at 6:46 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: Not if God's day = 1000 years, like the Bible clearly states it does.
Chapter and verse Huggy, or we'll know that you're lying.
Not that I've much doubt because, unlike you, I've read the fucking shitty diatribe and nowhere does it say "a day to yhwh is a millenium to us" or an equivalent.
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