Hemant Mehta

[The Grand Nudger]

So as a liberal I very much emphasize 1, 2 and 6.  I wonder if you feel the same way about 3, 4 and 5?  Presumably we can all find something in each category which fits.

If I were to start a thread in which to explore these differences, any chance you'd care to participate?

IDK about ham, I'd totally be down for that, but only if it had a poll.

1) There can not be people inside a dog.

Well now just wait a minute?  I thought that one possible karmic consequence was deevolution, you did just tell us that, right?  That means there have to be people reincarnated in dogs.

If a human being has been lowered to the level of a dog due to the karma law then there is no more human being but a dog.

Well, okay, then in what way has karma punished those people?  They're not even there to be punished.  

2) No human being can be in charge to act as a karmic avenger.

Which is why I asked whether or not following karmas marching orders was a legitimate defense against any bad karma doing the bad thing karma was punishing some person-come-dog with............?

If that would be the case then free will wouldn't apply any more but because it apply is obvious that no human being can cover the role of an avenger.  

That seems like an arbitrary limit of karmas power.  It can reincarnate people as dogs but it can't make a hopped up chimp kick one of those dogs for being a pedo in a previous life?

[Hammok Man]

I will start a new thread about atheist conservatives.

[Whateverist]

So as a liberal I very much emphasize 1, 2 and 6.  I wonder if you feel the same way about 3, 4 and 5?  Presumably we can all find something in each category which fits.

If I were to start a thread in which to explore these differences, any chance you'd care to participate?

IDK about ham, I'd totally be down for that, but only if it had a poll.

Oh there it is.  Thought I just felt a tug on my leg.

[Little Rik]

1) There can not be people inside a dog.

Well now just wait a minute?  I thought that one possible karmic consequence was deevolution, you did just tell us that, right?  That means there have to be people reincarnated in dogs.

Devolution means that you no longer (in this case in which you are reincarnated into a dog) are a human being. What before was a human being now is a dog.
End of the story.
The consciousness that before was inside a human being it has devolved.
It doesn't think like before as a human being would think.
Now it think like a dog.
It is of course the ex human being but now all human being features and characteristics have gone.
If the same human being consciousness would be encased or contain inside a dog body that animal would die in few minutes.
It just could not live inside a dog body that is why his-her previous consciousness has been lowered to the level of the dog.
In this case this consciousness maintain and keep a parallelism with a dog body.  

If a human being has been lowered to the level of a dog due to the karma law then there is no more human being but a dog.

Well, okay, then in what way has karma punished those people?  They're not even there to be punished.

Just yesterday I explained this point to Em.
A pity that you didn't read it.

Here I copy and paste some of that post.

2) Now let us talk about your idea that karma is a punishment.
Not true Em.
Suppose that you are a teacher and one or some of your students fail.
What would you do?
Would you punish them?
No, you would not but you rather would fail them so they will repeat the year.
If these students are not ready to go higher in their studies it is obvious that they can not pass and go
higher.
Their consciousness and intellect is not ready to go higher so the only logic thing to do is to repeat and wait for an other opportunity to go higher.
At the same time if humans are not good enough to be humans they should be lower to the level of animals, plants or matter waiting for future opportunity do become humans once again and do right this time.  Lightbulb

Of course to be lower down is felt as a punishment but it really isn't.
It is like a jigsaw puzzle.
There are many pieces and there are many puzzles.
The rule is that every piece must go in the correct puzzle as every creature must be located in the correct place whether is in a human body, animal, plant or matter.

2) No human being can be in charge to act as a karmic avenger.

Which is why I asked whether or not following karmas marching orders was a legitimate defense against any bad karma doing the bad thing karma was punishing some person-come-dog with............?

Karma marching orders?
What that means?  

If that would be the case then free will wouldn't apply any more but because it apply is obvious that no human being can cover the role of an avenger.  

That seems like an arbitrary limit of karmas power.  It can reincarnate people as dogs but it can't make a hopped up chimp kick one of those dogs for being a pedo in a previous life?

Remember that while animals lack free will humans do so an animal wouldn't get in any trouble (karma speaking) while humans would.

I do not understand your obsession with kicking a dog that in previous life was a pedo.
Why should anyone kick it?
Is like to say that someone should enter the jail and kick the people who are there for committing some crimes.
Aren't already punished enough for having to stay in jail beside the karma law can work in a myriad of ways.
A tile can fall on people walking down in the street and kill them.
Who did it?
The wind is responsible or Father Christmas?
We don't know and it is meaningless to worry about it.
The only thing that we should worry about is to avoid to build up any karma.
All the rest (guessing) means very little and is a waste of thinking time.  

[Little Rik]

Suppose that you are a teacher and one or some of your students fail.
What would you do?
Would you punish them?
No, you would not but you rather would fail them so they will repeat the year.
If these students are not ready to go higher in their studies it is obvious that they can not pass and go
higher.
Their consciousness and intellect is not ready to go higher so the only logic thing to do is to repeat and wait for an other opportunity to go higher.
At the same time if humans are not good enough to be humans they should be lower to the level of animals, plants or matter waiting for future opportunity do become humans once again and do right this time.  

Of course to be lower down is felt as a punishment but it really isn't.
It is like a jigsaw puzzle.
There are many pieces and there are many puzzles.
The rule is that every piece must go in the correct puzzle as every creature must be located in the correct place whether is in a human body, animal, plant or matter.

The question still remains though, what role do you ascribe to the 'cosmic thinker'? Ie whether punishment or rehabilitation, as an arbitrary judge/teacher, assigning devolutions on a case-by-case basis? Basically, as an intelligent agent making arbitrary decisions? As opposed to some systematic cycle without need for any arbitrary element.

It certainly need an element which I rather would describe as a super mind.
It is needed a mind and a big big mind to see, to understand to record and to sort out a proper decision.
By the way this super mind is not only there to devolve consciousness but is there also for doing the
opposite which is to evolve who deserve or better say to allow those who deserve to be reincarnate into a better medium whether is a better human body or to let them merge in Him and realize that they are Him.

It doesn't work like that Em.
There is no such a thing as punishment but as I just explain above is all about putting a particular consciousness in a medium that most fit it in order to perform better.
If a human behave like a dog then a dog body is most suited to his-her ability to perform and when that dog will be sick and tired of being a dog then he-she will develop the intuition to go higher and reach once again the human consciousness.
If however some people like killing other people they may be reincarnated as carnivorous animals and when these animals will be sick of killing then they may be reincarnated in something else that doesn't required killing.
It is all about what people wish to do in life.
If they do bad and are turned into lower form of lives then they wouldn't know why they are in an animal body since their consciousness has been lowered.
Why should they remember?
They have chosen that change.
The feeling to go higher once again will help them to change for the better.  

But I would argue a similar point to my previous point; that since (at least most) non-human animals lack reflective capabilities (at least presumably) then it's still the same problem as before... that a non-reflective animal cannot wish to be anything other than it is, and therefore seems that in those cases there can be no impetus for 'evolution'.

Wrong.  
Let us see what the instinct is all about Em.
Instinct is not only to drive lower form of lives to survive.
It also work as a stimulant to go ahead in the journey to higher consciousness.
Take a simple climber plant.
She will move and move in search of better opportunities so she can prosper, thrive and live better.
Every time this happen more and more consciousness pop up in her feeling.
This feeling will not stop.
It doesn't stop in plants it even doesn't stop in the matter in which energy-try to escape (see uranium and other) so you can imagine if it stop in animals and human being.
You are the classical example Em.
Right now you are here to expand your consciousness.
What you think it is the driving force Em?
You guess.