Pentecost Sunday - just reporting in

[vorlon13]

Is pentacost even Apostle Paul era retconning, or is it an even later chunk of ephemera grafted onto the edifice of the faith ??

[drfuzzy]

Is pentacost even Apostle Paul era retconning, or is it an even later chunk of ephemera grafted onto the edifice of the faith ??

Hmm Vorl, I don't know.  The scripture passage is from the 2nd chapter in the Acts of the Apostles book.  
Luke and Acts were written by the same author.  These books were written for a Greek audience.  The date, anywhere from AD 60 to AD 100.
All the bits about tongues of fire, people from all over the region hearing Galilean Aramaic as their own language, miracles . . . I assume that they're
stuck in there to impress the Greeks of the time that this "new" god was legit and more powerful than the old ones.

I've done a quick search, though, and I haven't found anything yet.  So if anyone knows if a "gift" of suddenly being able to speak all languages is associated 
with older Mediterranean deities, please share!  All I can figure is that the author of Luke -Acts (who tried so hard to tie Jeebers to all of the old prophecies, so
he obviously was an Torah scholar of some sort) was probably trying to say that Jeebus Christ's power nullified the Tower of Babel.

---

Yeah, I'm just sharing.  As most of you know, I still go play organ for a Catholic church.   My budget needs it.  So I'm an atheist sitting at the organ, watching the choir react to whatever the priest is spewing...

Well you’re either a shite keyboard player or a shite atheist, or both. What you have described here is a red neck church, I'll repeat that,  A Redneck Church. Next time round hit them with something like this:



I mean everyone loves a hoedown.

"A hoedown is a redneck gathering, usually involves shouting catchy phrases like "yee-haw" and "jesus will save us"

There will be a reaction. Make notes, report back.

HA, Succubus!  Oh yes, I know what a hoedown is.  I have relatives in Texas.  And the people in this particular redneck church would be completely furious to be labeled as such. This is an upper-middle-class Midwestern congregation.  Lots of doctors and lawyers and CEO's sitting in the pews.  Very proper, no shouting allowed.  And if I played anything even remotely hoedown-ish, I would be fired immediately.  The folks at this place prefer Bach fugues and Baroque-era selections.

[Drich]

Yeah, I'm just sharing.  As most of you know, I still go play organ for a Catholic church.   My budget needs it.

Good for you/it.

 So I'm an atheist sitting at the organ, watching the choir react to whatever the priest is spewing.  

Well, this morning was Pentecost, so the Priest was going on about the "gifts of the Spirit".  

Should have started with fruit or evidences of the Holy Spirit.

Healings, miracles, speaking in tongues, stuff that you usually don't talk about in a Catholic Church.  And this is a young (late 20's) intense, zealous guy.  And he was just ripping into the congregation: "If you would get down on your knees every single day and DEMAND that the Spirit keep his promises, everything in your life would improve!

Like I've pointed out in the past God will nt bless a corrupt understand or version of Himself. Just imagine if God allowed those spiritual gifts loose in a know catholic Church.. Then people would assume this church reflected the church of the bible. it doesn't. so what does God do instead? he his silent and sends the wind and the rain to test the houses the catholic church have 'built.' He tests the faith of those in the church, sometimes so intensly it forces people to admit that there is no God backing this particular expression of Christianity.

If you church came together and prayed the prayer He asked you to pray and God backed it... The church maybe all but abandoned.

 The Holy Spirit fixes what we cannot!

 Indeed so long as pride and sin do not first fill our hearts. Pride meaning (The idea that yours is the only version of acceptable Christianity.)

You would be so filled with love that people would stop you in the supermarket and ask you what your secret was!

 Not if we followed the rules about doing these kind of things in secrete.

We would be healing the sick!

Typically that is an elder or decon thing but yes.

 

We would be inspiring the world!

No the world would hate us all the more as per how they treated Christ.

 We would have so many new members that we would have to build a bigger church!!

No. Churches are for the spiritual sick/weak. the strong go out into the world and spread the god news.

 And because you do NOT pray, you're not only cheating yourself, you are cheating me as well!  You are depriving me of the gifts and inspiration that you should be giving to your pastor!"  

Brother if you practiced what you preached your faith being a catholic preist would be in turmoil. All the things he said do go on, but not in big show case churches. They have to teach the wrong things and mismanage their money to get that big. but cause of those discrepancies God would not bless them to do such works.

   Apparently the sheeple in the pews were not having the same thoughts as the atheist.  I was thinking "If you're a priest, (and if this Holy Spirit exists) you would be able to demonstrate those miracles yourself."  

we are not all given gifts but we are all given Spiritual fruit. Even when we are given gifts each man may only get a single gift or portion. Gifts are based on obedience and faithfulness, unlike salvation. Salvation is open to everyone. I don't even think you have to be 'christian' for that to take place. however gifts are the 'gifts' for seeking out who and what God really is apart from any religious nonsense.

I was thinking that he sounded really angry and frustrated.  He apparently wants HIS parish to get the attention of the Pope.

Then have him send the pope a copy of my Adam and eve/evolution assimilation and have him claim it for himself.

 It must be difficult to be a priest, and I'm not even thinking of the celibacy requirement.  To spend your life on your knees and beg god for those super-powers he was promising must be . . . crazy making.

Even if He got a Spiritual gift He would not be happy, as they are not magical illusion to be performed. These gifts are not from us and as such we can't just pull rabbits out of our hats. We are tools and gifts such as this come when they are to Help God and His will/plan and not our own.

   I walked out with a friend who is a science teacher - very pragmatic, very down-to-earth.  I asked her what she thought - if we pray hard enough, we'll all be doing miracles.  She laughed and said, "No, that's all myth and legend.

Indeed as it is not about faith and magic. (therefore prayer is not the catalyst here.) The holy Spirit is. We are to A/S/K for the Holy Spirit. When we receive a measure of the Spirit we will exhibit Spiritual fruit. If we honor what God gave us and continually to seek Him out then we will be given gifts if it is His will. Meaning The Holy Spirit is the reason for the Gifts not prayer. We do pray as apart of A/S/K to get the holy Spirit but that is only one element to the three we have been commanded.

 

What I'm amazed at is that he seems to think it's literal.  I wonder what they teach these boys in seminary."  -- She's one of these cradle-Catholics - she goes to Mass because she has always gone to Mass.  She's pretty sure that God exists, but that most of the Bible is silliness - she's not even sold on Jesus' "resurrection".  I like talking to her, she's very sane.  
    She's really one step away from atheism.  I wonder if she will ever take that step.  The priest seems very angry.  I wonder if he will ever wake up.

The reason he is angry is because his god is silent to him. He has built his faith on the sand and God tested it by sending the winds and rain and his faith/house fell down. again because he is worshiping the wrong God. So now he is seek out in a broader congregation if and where God is speaking out. or is he silent across the board.

Next he will loose his faith in the church and in Catholicism, and if he has bought into the catholic church being god's only church will determine whether or not he looses faith in God. or so it usually goes.

Happy Sunday to all here at AF.       -- Fuzz

[Anon2381]

Yeah, I'm just sharing.  As most of you know, I still go play organ for a Catholic church.   My budget needs it.

Good for you/it.

 So I'm an atheist sitting at the organ, watching the choir react to whatever the priest is spewing.  

Well, this morning was Pentecost, so the Priest was going on about the "gifts of the Spirit".  

Should have started with fruit or evidences of the Holy Spirit.

Healings, miracles, speaking in tongues, stuff that you usually don't talk about in a Catholic Church.  And this is a young (late 20's) intense, zealous guy.  And he was just ripping into the congregation: "If you would get down on your knees every single day and DEMAND that the Spirit keep his promises, everything in your life would improve!

  Like I've pointed out in the past God will nt bless a corrupt understand or version of Himself. Just imagine if God allowed those spiritual gifts loose in a know catholic Church.. Then people would assume this church reflected the church of the bible. it doesn't. so what does God do instead? he his silent and sends the wind and the rain to test the houses the catholic church have 'built.' He tests the faith of those in the church, sometimes so intensly it forces people to admit that there is no God backing this particular expression of Christianity.

If you church came together and prayed the prayer He asked you to pray and God backed it... The church maybe all but abandoned.

 The Holy Spirit fixes what we cannot!

 Indeed so long as pride and sin do not first fill our hearts. Pride meaning (The idea that yours is the only version of acceptable Christianity.)

You would be so filled with love that people would stop you in the supermarket and ask you what your secret was!

 Not if we followed the rules about doing these kind of things in secrete.

We would be healing the sick!

Typically that is an elder or decon thing but yes.

 

We would be inspiring the world!

No the world would hate us all the more as per how they treated Christ.

 We would have so many new members that we would have to build a bigger church!!

No. Churches are for the spiritual sick/weak. the strong go out into the world and spread the god news.

 And because you do NOT pray, you're not only cheating yourself, you are cheating me as well!  You are depriving me of the gifts and inspiration that you should be giving to your pastor!"  

Brother if you practiced what you preached your faith being a catholic preist would be in turmoil. All the things he said do go on, but not in big show case churches. They have to teach the wrong things and mismanage their money to get that big. but cause of those discrepancies God would not bless them to do such works.

   Apparently the sheeple in the pews were not having the same thoughts as the atheist.  I was thinking "If you're a priest, (and if this Holy Spirit exists) you would be able to demonstrate those miracles yourself."  

we are not all given gifts but we are all given Spiritual fruit. Even when we are given gifts each man may only get a single gift or portion. Gifts are based on obedience and faithfulness, unlike salvation. Salvation is open to everyone. I don't even think you have to be 'christian' for that to take place. however gifts are the 'gifts' for seeking out who and what God really is apart from any religious nonsense.

I was thinking that he sounded really angry and frustrated.  He apparently wants HIS parish to get the attention of the Pope.

Then have him send the pope a copy of my Adam and eve/evolution assimilation and have him claim it for himself.

 It must be difficult to be a priest, and I'm not even thinking of the celibacy requirement.  To spend your life on your knees and beg god for those super-powers he was promising must be . . . crazy making.

Even if He got a Spiritual gift He would not be happy, as they are not magical illusion to be performed. These gifts are not from us and as such we can't just pull rabbits out of our hats. We are tools and gifts such as this come when they are to Help God and His will/plan and not our own.

   I walked out with a friend who is a science teacher - very pragmatic, very down-to-earth.  I asked her what she thought - if we pray hard enough, we'll all be doing miracles.  She laughed and said, "No, that's all myth and legend.

Indeed as it is not about faith and magic. (therefore prayer is not the catalyst here.) The holy Spirit is. We are to A/S/K for the Holy Spirit. When we receive a measure of the Spirit we will exhibit Spiritual fruit. If we honor what God gave us and continually to seek Him out then we will be given gifts if it is His will. Meaning The Holy Spirit is the reason for the Gifts not prayer. We do pray as apart of A/S/K to get the holy Spirit but that is only one element to the three we have been commanded.

 

What I'm amazed at is that he seems to think it's literal.  I wonder what they teach these boys in seminary."  -- She's one of these cradle-Catholics - she goes to Mass because she has always gone to Mass.  She's pretty sure that God exists, but that most of the Bible is silliness - she's not even sold on Jesus' "resurrection".  I like talking to her, she's very sane.  
    She's really one step away from atheism.  I wonder if she will ever take that step.  The priest seems very angry.  I wonder if he will ever wake up.

The reason he is angry is because his god is silent to him. He has built his faith on the sand and God tested it by sending the winds and rain and his faith/house fell down. again because he is worshiping the wrong God. So now he is seek out in a broader congregation if and where God is speaking out. or is he silent across the board.

Next he will loose his faith in the church and in Catholicism, and if he has bought into the catholic church being god's only church will determine whether or not he looses faith in God. or so it usually goes.

Happy Sunday to all here at AF.       -- Fuzz

Drich
Did you build your faith on a rock like me? Those winds of truth are strong, and the rains of knowledge are making your hands slippery. You should probably just let go
Live your one life and stop wasting your time. The Holy Spirit told me so. 

Matthew 7:24-27English Standard Version (ESV)
Build Your House on the Rock
24 “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock.25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. 26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.”

[Minimalist]

The only rocks dripshit has are in his head.

[drfuzzy]

---

Yeah, I'm just sharing.  As most of you know, I still go play organ for a Catholic church.   My budget needs it.

---

---

Good for you/it.

---

---

 So I'm an atheist sitting at the organ, watching the choir react to whatever the priest is spewing.  

---

---

Well, this morning was Pentecost, so the Priest was going on about the "gifts of the Spirit".  

---

---

Should have started with fruit or evidences of the Holy Spirit.

---

---

Healings, miracles, speaking in tongues, stuff that you usually don't talk about in a Catholic Church.  And this is a young (late 20's) intense, zealous guy.  And he was just ripping into the congregation: "If you would get down on your knees every single day and DEMAND that the Spirit keep his promises, everything in your life would improve!

---

 

---

Like I've pointed out in the past God will nt bless a corrupt understand or version of Himself. Just imagine if God allowed those spiritual gifts loose in a know catholic Church.. Then people would assume this church reflected the church of the bible. it doesn't. so what does God do instead? he his silent and sends the wind and the rain to test the houses the catholic church have 'built.' He tests the faith of those in the church, sometimes so intensly it forces people to admit that there is no God backing this particular expression of Christianity.

If you church came together and prayed the prayer He asked you to pray and God backed it... The church maybe all but abandoned.

---

 

---

The Holy Spirit fixes what we cannot!

---

 

---

Indeed so long as pride and sin do not first fill our hearts. Pride meaning (The idea that yours is the only version of acceptable Christianity.)

---

---

You would be so filled with love that people would stop you in the supermarket and ask you what your secret was!

---

---

 Not if we followed the rules about doing these kind of things in secrete.

---

---

We would be healing the sick!

---

---

Typically that is an elder or decon thing but yes.

---

 

---

We would be inspiring the world!

---

---

No the world would hate us all the more as per how they treated Christ.

---

---

 We would have so many new members that we would have to build a bigger church!!

---

---

No. Churches are for the spiritual sick/weak. the strong go out into the world and spread the god news.

---

 

---

And because you do NOT pray, you're not only cheating yourself, you are cheating me as well!  You are depriving me of the gifts and inspiration that you should be giving to your pastor!"

---

 

---

Brother if you practiced what you preached your faith being a catholic preist would be in turmoil. All the things he said do go on, but not in big show case churches. They have to teach the wrong things and mismanage their money to get that big. but cause of those discrepancies God would not bless them to do such works.

---

 

---

 Apparently the sheeple in the pews were not having the same thoughts as the atheist.  I was thinking "If you're a priest, (and if this Holy Spirit exists) you would be able to demonstrate those miracles yourself."  

---

---

we are not all given gifts but we are all given Spiritual fruit. Even when we are given gifts each man may only get a single gift or portion. Gifts are based on obedience and faithfulness, unlike salvation. Salvation is open to everyone. I don't even think you have to be 'christian' for that to take place. however gifts are the 'gifts' for seeking out who and what God really is apart from any religious nonsense.

---

---

I was thinking that he sounded really angry and frustrated.  He apparently wants HIS parish to get the attention of the Pope.

---

---

Then have him send the pope a copy of my Adam and eve/evolution assimilation and have him claim it for himself.

---

 

---

It must be difficult to be a priest, and I'm not even thinking of the celibacy requirement.  To spend your life on your knees and beg god for those super-powers he was promising must be . . . crazy making.

---

---

Even if He got a Spiritual gift He would not be happy, as they are not magical illusion to be performed. These gifts are not from us and as such we can't just pull rabbits out of our hats. We are tools and gifts such as this come when they are to Help God and His will/plan and not our own.

---

 

---

 I walked out with a friend who is a science teacher - very pragmatic, very down-to-earth.  I asked her what she thought - if we pray hard enough, we'll all be doing miracles.  She laughed and said, "No, that's all myth and legend.

---

---

Indeed as it is not about faith and magic. (therefore prayer is not the catalyst here.) The holy Spirit is. We are to A/S/K for the Holy Spirit. When we receive a measure of the Spirit we will exhibit Spiritual fruit. If we honor what God gave us and continually to seek Him out then we will be given gifts if it is His will. Meaning The Holy Spirit is the reason for the Gifts not prayer. We do pray as apart of A/S/K to get the holy Spirit but that is only one element to the three we have been commanded.

---

 

---

What I'm amazed at is that he seems to think it's literal.  I wonder what they teach these boys in seminary."  -- She's one of these cradle-Catholics - she goes to Mass because she has always gone to Mass.  She's pretty sure that God exists, but that most of the Bible is silliness - she's not even sold on Jesus' "resurrection".  I like talking to her, she's very sane.  
    She's really one step away from atheism.  I wonder if she will ever take that step.  The priest seems very angry.  I wonder if he will ever wake up.

---

The reason he is angry is because his god is silent to him. He has built his faith on the sand and God tested it by sending the winds and rain and his faith/house fell down. again because he is worshiping the wrong God. So now he is seek out in a broader congregation if and where God is speaking out. or is he silent across the board.

Next he will loose his faith in the church and in Catholicism, and if he has bought into the catholic church being god's only church will determine whether or not he looses faith in God. or so it usually goes.

---

Happy Sunday to all here at AF.       -- Fuzz

---

(If you guys can tell me how to hide all quotes at once, I would appreciate it.  I couldn't seem to make it work.  Dripshit was dripping shit as usual.)
Ah yes.  I've been in protestant churches that were so sick that they even sent missionaries to the Catholics.  Old, old story - THOSE stupid people over there, they don't pray right! They don't interpret the Bible right!  They're not REAL Christians!  Only WE have the answer.  God loves US best.  It's all hideous evil bullshit.  People end up killing each other over their imaginary friend.  If anyone on the planet actually could demonstrate any of these claims, there would be no disagreement.  Words, words, words, supported by absolutely nothing.

[vorlon13]

Protestants sending missionaries to Catholics is pretty funny. And most of the 70,000 schisms in Christendom are Protestant. One might think they'd want to clean up their side of the street first.

[Drich]

---

Good for you/it.

---

---

Should have started with fruit or evidences of the Holy Spirit.

---

 

---

Like I've pointed out in the past God will nt bless a corrupt understand or version of Himself. Just imagine if God allowed those spiritual gifts loose in a know catholic Church.. Then people would assume this church reflected the church of the bible. it doesn't. so what does God do instead? he his silent and sends the wind and the rain to test the houses the catholic church have 'built.' He tests the faith of those in the church, sometimes so intensly it forces people to admit that there is no God backing this particular expression of Christianity.

If you church came together and prayed the prayer He asked you to pray and God backed it... The church maybe all but abandoned.

---

 

---

Indeed so long as pride and sin do not first fill our hearts. Pride meaning (The idea that yours is the only version of acceptable Christianity.)

---

---

 Not if we followed the rules about doing these kind of things in secrete.

---

---

Typically that is an elder or decon thing but yes.

---

 

---

No the world would hate us all the more as per how they treated Christ.

---

---

No. Churches are for the spiritual sick/weak. the strong go out into the world and spread the god news.

---

---

Brother if you practiced what you preached your faith being a catholic preist would be in turmoil. All the things he said do go on, but not in big show case churches. They have to teach the wrong things and mismanage their money to get that big. but cause of those discrepancies God would not bless them to do such works.

---

---

we are not all given gifts but we are all given Spiritual fruit. Even when we are given gifts each man may only get a single gift or portion. Gifts are based on obedience and faithfulness, unlike salvation. Salvation is open to everyone. I don't even think you have to be 'christian' for that to take place. however gifts are the 'gifts' for seeking out who and what God really is apart from any religious nonsense.

---

---

Then have him send the pope a copy of my Adam and eve/evolution assimilation and have him claim it for himself.

---

---

Even if He got a Spiritual gift He would not be happy, as they are not magical illusion to be performed. These gifts are not from us and as such we can't just pull rabbits out of our hats. We are tools and gifts such as this come when they are to Help God and His will/plan and not our own.

---

---

Indeed as it is not about faith and magic. (therefore prayer is not the catalyst here.) The holy Spirit is. We are to A/S/K for the Holy Spirit. When we receive a measure of the Spirit we will exhibit Spiritual fruit. If we honor what God gave us and continually to seek Him out then we will be given gifts if it is His will. Meaning The Holy Spirit is the reason for the Gifts not prayer. We do pray as apart of A/S/K to get the holy Spirit but that is only one element to the three we have been commanded.

---

 
The reason he is angry is because his god is silent to him. He has built his faith on the sand and God tested it by sending the winds and rain and his faith/house fell down. again because he is worshiping the wrong God. So now he is seek out in a broader congregation if and where God is speaking out. or is he silent across the board.

Next he will loose his faith in the church and in Catholicism, and if he has bought into the catholic church being god's only church will determine whether or not he looses faith in God. or so it usually goes.

(If you guys can tell me how to hide all quotes at once, I would appreciate it.  I couldn't seem to make it work.  Dripshit was dripping shit as usual.)
Ah yes.  I've been in protestant churches that were so sick that they even sent missionaries to the Catholics.  Old, old story - THOSE stupid people over there, they don't pray right! They don't interpret the Bible right!  They're not REAL Christians!  Only WE have the answer.  God loves US best.  It's all hideous evil bullshit.  People end up killing each other over their imaginary friend.  If anyone on the planet actually could demonstrate any of these claims, there would be no disagreement.  Words, words, words, supported by absolutely nothing.

Quick question..

Has anyone besides the apostle peter manifest "spiritual gifts" in your church?

Again not talking about just salvation, everyone has access to that Christian or not.

I'm asking do you know what a healing hand feels like? do or anyone in your church know what to do if they have been given full access to God's knowledge? Why is your PREIST seeking validation of HIS FAITH in someone else's ability to manifest a spiritual gift? Why not lead the congregation with his own gifts? Why is it that NO ONE in your church is able to help him and show him what he seeks?

Maybe because the Holy Spirit has left that building.

The first 2 chapter of Revelation tells us there were 7 churches or rather 7 acceptable forms/denominations of Christianity at it's height. now at the end times Jesus is telling each church where it's fault or major sin lies so it can fix it before it is too late. If they do not address their issues the "lampstand"/Holy Spirit is often describe as a point of light or a lamp placed in a high point) will be taken from the church. Meaning no more Spiritul fruit no more Spiritual gifts, and all the honest with themselves people leaving.

---

Protestants sending missionaries to Catholics is pretty funny.  And most of the 70,000 schisms in Christendom are Protestant.  One might think they'd want to clean up their side of the street first.

lol... I guess The total number of 'schisms' has doubled in a year

[vorlon13]

As noted before, we're playing by Christer rules on the number of schisms. You need to disprove 35,000 individual schisms to get the total down by half.

[vorlon13]

As noted before, we're playing by Christer rules on the number of schisms.  You need to disprove 35,000 individual schisms to get the total down by half.

And maybe I should note where the 70,000 comes from:

the 35,000 denominations that Drich acknowledges in his post, plus the 35,000 non-denominational/independents scattered about.




From  Hartford Institute For Religion Research:

If the nation’s independent and nondenominational churches were combined into a single group they would represent the third largest cluster of religious adherents in the country, following the Roman Catholic Church and the Southern Baptist Convention; second largest in the number of churches – following the Southern Baptist. Overall, this research found over 35,000 churches representing more than 12,200,000 adherents. In total, four percent of the US population worships in an independent or nondenominational church.