In Defense of God.

[The Grand Nudger]

I certainly agree that we need to move away from those  portions and types of religion which have repeatedly shown themselves to lead to misery.  Most religious people agree, even the ones who believe in what we would call silly shit or in the tradition that -caused- the misery.

(in the book, the author tries to convey that the things some other traditional religious beliefs provide do not require gods, or those traditional religious strictures, in order to be achieved. A religion without superstition, a religion without a spirit telling you to kill the gays or what have you. A religious system that provides the bennies...without the nasty side effects or unsupported assertions. A religion of curiosity, a religion of natural investigation.)

[Astonished]

I certainly agree that we need to move away from those  portions and types of religion which have repeatedly shown themselves to lead to misery.  Most religious people agree, even the ones who believe in what we would call silly shit or in the tradition that -caused- the misery.

(in the book, the author tries to convey that the things some other traditional religious beliefs provide do not require gods, or those traditional religious strictures, in order to be achieved.  A religion without superstition, a religion without  a spirit telling you to kill the gays or what have you.  A religious system that provides the bennies...without the nasty side effects or unsupported assertions.  A religion of curiosity, a religion of natural investigation.)

Here's my problem: The intrinsic irrationality of it is unavoidable, and when you open that door, you're inviting any number of the negative consequences we see in it. You don't need to believe in nonsense, or even be open to fanciful notions, to have a sense of wonder and mystery. Why can't people be content with that? It's like saying people are desperate to be insane and...that's insane.

[The Grand Nudger]

That, in many more words, was the point of the book I linked you.  The author thinks that people -can- be content with that.  That the things that people seek out from their religious traditions can be achieved without those traditions.

Religiosity, in and of itself, is not irrationality. To make that stick, you'd have to explicitly refer to the articles of the faith, as it were.

[Astonished]

That, in many more words, was the point of the book I linked you.  The author thinks that people -can- be content with that.  That the things that people seek out from their religious traditions can be achieved without those traditions.

Religiosity, in and of itself, is not irrationality.  To make that stick, you'd have to explicitly refer to the articles of the faith, as it were.

Well, faith is the word there, that's the one we know is irrational. If faith is an intrinsic component of religion (irrationality) then my point sticks, but if you divorce faith from religion, I fail to see how it remains justified in being called religion. It's just loading a word with something that doesn't belong there. But then we dispute definitions quite a bit, don't we?

[The Grand Nudger]

Meh, it helps to make sure that everyone is talking about the same thing.  

I think that the authors entire point was to provide a religion that radically departs from traditional religions...so, if you read his book and thought "How is this a religion"....thinking of those traditional religions...he'd have achieved his goal.

[GUBU]

Usually when I ask why we should pick the bible over other holy texts that may include people who had stories similar to jesus, a christian will mention prophesy. Except the prophesies are either vague, or just didn't work out right. a big one is Israel becoming a country again, but the bible also says King David will rule that land. So now we're waiting until some guy named David becomes leader of Israel, and crowns himself king?

We're also waiting for Israel to contract to abou a quarter of its size. The biblical promised land is roughly congruent with the land ruled by the Hashemite dynasty, which centred on a small area between the Jerusalem hills and the edge of the Mediterranian littoral.