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RE: Objective morality as a proper basic belief
June 26, 2017 at 12:52 pm
(This post was last modified: June 26, 2017 at 12:53 pm by Whateverist.)
(June 26, 2017 at 12:47 pm)Astonished Wrote: (June 26, 2017 at 12:40 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Exactly. Objective morality, on the other hand...not this christers bullshit, objective morality - not so easy to tear down.
@above...when did you ever get the impression that I disagreed? I'm commenting on objective morality, not their gods divine commands.
Look, would you do me a favor and just explain to me what you think objective morality means to you? From what I've been reading there's not even a consensus on that. I know where I fall on the spectrum but I'm not sure where you do.
Yeah, I'd like to know too. In what sense do you say morality is or can be objective? Do you mean that there is a body of do's and don'ts which just should guide people's actions, regardless of what their individual values may be? Or do you mean that there just is a preponderance of agreement on certain general precepts which can be boiled down and logically elaborated upon to constitute OM?
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RE: Objective morality as a proper basic belief
June 26, 2017 at 12:54 pm
(This post was last modified: June 26, 2017 at 12:57 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
An objective morality is a moral system in which the moral propositions are based upon objectively verifiable facts of a matter we consider to be a moral one. Moral facts of the matter.
I think that there are, or at least can be, moral facts of the matter. I don't know that anyone possesses a list (but..considering how objective morality is arrived at you don't need a list, you can take em as they come). I don;t think that morality is an issue of a preponderance of agreement, but of a preponderance of facts. When those facts are mistaken, are not..in fact, facts... then the morality does something strange* - like an honor killing.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Objective morality as a proper basic belief
June 26, 2017 at 12:55 pm
(June 26, 2017 at 12:54 pm)Khemikal Wrote: An objective morality is a moral system in which the moral propositions are based upon objectively verifiable facts of a matter we consider to be a moral one. Moral facts of the matter.
I think that there are, or at least can be, moral facts of the matter.
What would be the test to verify you had the right ones?
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RE: Objective morality as a proper basic belief
June 26, 2017 at 12:55 pm
(June 26, 2017 at 12:54 pm)Khemikal Wrote: An objective morality is a moral system in which the moral propositions are based upon objectively verifiable facts of a matter we consider to be a moral one. Moral facts of the matter.
I think that there are, or at least can be, moral facts of the matter.
I think that's where the problem lies.
Religions were invented to impress and dupe illiterate, superstitious stone-age peasants. So in this modern, enlightened age of information, what's your excuse? Or are you saying with all your advantages, you were still tricked as easily as those early humans?
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There is no better way to convey the least amount of information in the greatest amount of words than to try explaining your religious views.
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RE: Objective morality as a proper basic belief
June 26, 2017 at 12:55 pm
Do we get to vote? 
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RE: Objective morality as a proper basic belief
June 26, 2017 at 1:02 pm
(This post was last modified: June 26, 2017 at 1:05 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(June 26, 2017 at 12:55 pm)Whateverist Wrote: (June 26, 2017 at 12:54 pm)Khemikal Wrote: An objective morality is a moral system in which the moral propositions are based upon objectively verifiable facts of a matter we consider to be a moral one. Moral facts of the matter.
I think that there are, or at least can be, moral facts of the matter.
What would be the test to verify you had the right ones? It would, objectively, depend on whatever matter we were discussing, wouldn't it? That's an impossible question to answer in a vacuum. We'll continue with the rape theme..since it's whats on every frothing christers mind when they barge in talking about morality (and isn't -that- disturbing? it's almost as if these fuckers don't get laid enough)
Is there something or somethings about rape that makes it a moral matter? That makes it bad? Something verifiable, something objective? I think there is. Can you identify anything like that?
(June 26, 2017 at 12:55 pm)Astonished Wrote: (June 26, 2017 at 12:54 pm)Khemikal Wrote: An objective morality is a moral system in which the moral propositions are based upon objectively verifiable facts of a matter we consider to be a moral one. Moral facts of the matter.
I think that there are, or at least can be, moral facts of the matter.
I think that's where the problem lies. Why? What's the problem?
(June 26, 2017 at 12:55 pm)Whateverist Wrote: Do we get to vote? Sure, but it wont be your vote that decides anything, objectively...it would be a fact of the matter, or many facts of the matter, that decided the matter
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Objective morality as a proper basic belief
June 26, 2017 at 1:06 pm
(June 26, 2017 at 10:19 am)Little Henry Wrote: It is not for me to define, that is why it is called OM. By being OM, it has nothing to do with what i think or how i can define it.
Also, it is not because God says so. It is not his opinion. Rather they derive from his nature.
First you'd have to prove that God exists. Then you'd have to prove that the morals derive from his nature, and aren't just his opinion. Good luck!
The whole tone of Church teaching in regard to woman is, to the last degree, contemptuous and degrading. - Elizabeth Cady Stanton
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RE: Objective morality as a proper basic belief
June 26, 2017 at 1:09 pm
(June 26, 2017 at 10:50 am)Little Henry Wrote: Let me ask you
If i told you me and my friends have been raping and torturing a child for fun for the past 6 months, have we been doing something wrong?
I would definitely not approve of your hobby and in my view it would be wrong. Indeed society in general views these things as being wrong but it is nor true for all societies at all times. This is why an evolving morality is superior to the ones set down eons ago in harsher societies. Societies were you would send your dughters to be raped rather than offend a male guest. Societies were slavery was A ok.
Morality shifts.
At the moment its shifting for the better.
Our society accepts being gay as not immoral and that is better we are more tolerant of other faiths or no faiths, better.
Quote:Like if i say 1+1=3 wrong? LIke if i say the earth is flat wrong? or if i say the sun rotates around the earth wrong?
Those are objective facts.
Quote:Or do you only find me and my friends acts distasteful or undesirable....like if we told you we have been eating a fruit you really hate?
This should give you an idea where i am coming from?
Not really you are confusing what is objective and what is subjective.
I think it is morally wrong to condemn homosexuality, that is subjective opinion. If morals were objective everyone would think it immoral to condemn homosexuals, but they don't do they!
[/quote]
You can fix ignorance, you can't fix stupid.
Tinkety Tonk and down with the Nazis.
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RE: Objective morality as a proper basic belief
June 26, 2017 at 1:15 pm
(June 26, 2017 at 1:09 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: Not really you are confusing what is objective and what is subjective.
I think it is morally wrong to condemn homosexuality, that is subjective opinion. If morals were objective everyone would think it immoral to condemn homosexuals, but they don't do they! [/quote]
This bit isn't true at all. Moral disagreement exists. Moral disagreement would still exist if morality were objective. Those moral disagreements would be better informed disagreements than any "just-so" disagreements.
What you are referring to, is what would be the case if morality was completely uniform.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Objective morality as a proper basic belief
June 26, 2017 at 1:16 pm
(This post was last modified: June 26, 2017 at 1:22 pm by Astreja.
Edit Reason: Period at end of sentence was trying to make a getaway, but I caught it and put it back.
)
(June 26, 2017 at 10:27 am)Little Henry Wrote: You cannot use the words subjective and right in the same sentence. If something is subjective, then you are admitting such facts do not exist.
Stick it up your rectum. I can, and I shall. I believe that all morality is inexorably subjective because it is based on values, which are subjective.
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