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Objective morality as a proper basic belief
RE: Objective morality as a proper basic belief
(July 17, 2017 at 3:37 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: Your post are showing signs of degression.  Attacking the person, changing the subject, and trying to attack arguments I'm not making.   This is not part of intelligent discussion. 
How would you know what an intelligent conversation is?  

Quote:There is a big difference, in claiming, that there is "some connection" between harm and morals, and claiming that they are the basis for it.Which is it, that you are claiming to be the axiom?   I also notice a connection between humans and morality.   And while we at it, can you confirm exactly what statement or premise, that you are claiming to be axiomatic?  While your rhetoric and sophism game may be good (i assume that is the "game" you where referring to earlier), many words, is not a substitute for substance and logical thinking.
In my experience, people complain about sophism when they've been completely stymied.  There's more than just "some connection", ofc, yet another example of your disingenuous nature.  The connection is inescapable and fundamental to all moral systems.  They all refer to harm.  I keep telling you that, we keep seeing how every example I offer, or you offer, or bob down the street offers....refers inexorably back to harm.  What is the -point- in attempting to maintain a disagreement on this? 

Quote:And if you don't want to have an intelligent conversation, and just want to shout down everything I say, without addressing it.  Fine, I look towards some smarter atheist to reason with.
I'm "shouting" because your posts indicate a person who is hard of hearing.  Your questions have been answered, ad naus.  Your objections have been coopted ad naus.  You have nothing intelligent to say on the subject of morality, objective or otherwise.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Objective morality as a proper basic belief
Ok

Define a morality that comes from a an exterior superior being, and then define how you know it's moral?

Must include justification for slavery and genocide.

The lack of god ideas presented work, albeit imperfectly. The omniscient god's version should work perfectly.

No fancy smanshy philosophy required, this should be trivially easy.
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RE: Objective morality as a proper basic belief
(July 17, 2017 at 3:52 pm)Khemikal Wrote:
(July 17, 2017 at 3:37 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: Attacking the person, changing the subject, and trying to attack arguments I'm not making. This is not part of intelligent discussion. 
How would you know what an intelligent conversation is?  

Do you disagree with what I said above? You did ok for a while, I'll give you credit for that.

However if this is what you think intelligent discussion is about.... I'll seek elsewhere!
It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man.  - Alexander Vilenkin
If I am shown my error, I will be the first to throw my books into the fire.  - Martin Luther
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RE: Objective morality as a proper basic belief
(July 17, 2017 at 3:37 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote:
(July 17, 2017 at 2:02 pm)Khemikal Wrote:


Your post are showing signs of degression.  Attacking the person, changing the subject, and trying to attack arguments I'm not making.   This is not part of intelligent discussion. 

There is a big difference, in claiming, that there is "some connection" between harm and morals, and claiming that they are the basis for it.Which is it, that you are claiming to be the axiom?   I also notice a connection between humans and morality.   And while we at it, can you confirm exactly what statement or premise, that you are claiming to be axiomatic?  While your rhetoric and sophism game may be good (i assume that is the "game" you where referring to earlier), many words, is not a substitute for substance and logical thinking.

And if you don't want to have an intelligent conversation, and just want to shout down everything I say, without addressing it.  Fine, I look towards some smarter atheist to reason with.

The bluster covers the thin reasoning. He does not want to get anywhere near the fact that there exist a basic objective morality built into every human being that is not so cut and dried as his 'harm axiom'.
Reply
RE: Objective morality as a proper basic belief
......................................................................? I'm the only person in thread arguing for an objective morality possessed or accessible by human beings, so?

LOL, this, apparently, is what happens when you go off whatever "atheists say" script these jackasses are working from - they have a stroke. One thinks I must be smuggling something, somewhere, but can;t point it out, and the other thinks I'm arguing against or omitting a basic objective morality, by arguing for a basic objective morality.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
RE: Objective morality as a proper basic belief
(July 17, 2017 at 4:18 pm)Khemikal Wrote: ......................................................................?  I'm the only person in thread arguing for an objective morality possessed or accessible by human beings, so?

LOL, this, apparently, is what happens when you go off whatever "atheists say" script these jackasses are working from - they have a stroke.  One thinks I must be smuggling something, somewhere, but can;t point it out, and the other thinks I'm arguing against or omitting a basic objective morality, by arguing for a basic objective morality.

This is why I generally don't debate theists on morality .For the same reason I don't argue with a broken record .
Seek strength, not to be greater than my brother, but to fight my greatest enemy -- myself.

Inuit Proverb

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RE: Objective morality as a proper basic belief
(July 17, 2017 at 4:10 pm)SteveII Wrote:
(July 17, 2017 at 3:37 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: Your post are showing signs of degression.  Attacking the person, changing the subject, and trying to attack arguments I'm not making.   This is not part of intelligent discussion. 

There is a big difference, in claiming, that there is "some connection" between harm and morals, and claiming that they are the basis for it.Which is it, that you are claiming to be the axiom?   I also notice a connection between humans and morality.   And while we at it, can you confirm exactly what statement or premise, that you are claiming to be axiomatic?  While your rhetoric and sophism game may be good (i assume that is the "game" you where referring to earlier), many words, is not a substitute for substance and logical thinking.

And if you don't want to have an intelligent conversation, and just want to shout down everything I say, without addressing it.  Fine, I look towards some smarter atheist to reason with.

The bluster covers the thin reasoning. He does not want to get anywhere near the fact that there exist a basic objective morality built into every human being that is not so cut and dried as his 'harm axiom'.

Explain sociopaths and psychopaths then? Evolution has a pretty good stab at this.

I am Bi-Polar, give me the God's honest truth on the hell I've lived through.

And I still submit that you and I are more moral than the god of your book and the god you think you talk to.

If we met, we would probably have a nice time and agree on many things. Why would you think I think that?
Reply
RE: Objective morality as a proper basic belief
(July 17, 2017 at 4:10 pm)SteveII Wrote:
(July 17, 2017 at 3:37 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: Your post are showing signs of degression.  Attacking the person, changing the subject, and trying to attack arguments I'm not making.   This is not part of intelligent discussion. 

There is a big difference, in claiming, that there is "some connection" between harm and morals, and claiming that they are the basis for it.Which is it, that you are claiming to be the axiom?   I also notice a connection between humans and morality.   And while we at it, can you confirm exactly what statement or premise, that you are claiming to be axiomatic?  While your rhetoric and sophism game may be good (i assume that is the "game" you where referring to earlier), many words, is not a substitute for substance and logical thinking.

And if you don't want to have an intelligent conversation, and just want to shout down everything I say, without addressing it.  Fine, I look towards some smarter atheist to reason with.

The bluster covers the thin reasoning. He does not want to get anywhere near the fact that there exist a basic objective morality built into every human being that is not so cut and dried as his 'harm axiom'.

See I don't think this discussion had anything to do with the moral argument and an objective morality.   It seemed more about epistemology and how we know.

The other thing to watch for, is I think I seen some equivocation with the term objective.  It seems like I often run into the other meaning of the term about being able to make an objective statement.  And that is not the sense in which the moral argument is using it.  I'm not necessarily faulting the instances where I believe this was the case, and I didn't bring it up, because it wasn't pertinent to the discussion.  But it is something to be aware of, because some do try to equivocate the two meanings.

I had seen an example a little while ago, which I think aptly demonstrates the two (even if the original was used in a slightly different way).

You have an un-opend gift at a birthday party.   A number of people inspect the package, and give an educated guess to what they think it may be.  There are a few different conclusions as to what is in the package.  Some good, some just wild guesses and obviously off the mark a lot of people come to the same conclusion.
Now apart from perhaps those with prior knowledge, no one can make an objective statement as to what is inside the gift.  They can provide their reasons for their conclusions, and some may be correct, some may be close, some completely wrong (even if the reasoning is sound).  However, we can say that what is in the package is objective and not subjective.  The subjective statements and reasons for what the gift is, don't change the fact of what it actually is.
It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man.  - Alexander Vilenkin
If I am shown my error, I will be the first to throw my books into the fire.  - Martin Luther
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RE: Objective morality as a proper basic belief
(July 17, 2017 at 4:29 pm)JackRussell Wrote:
(July 17, 2017 at 4:10 pm)SteveII Wrote: The bluster covers the thin reasoning. He does not want to get anywhere near the fact that there exist a basic objective morality built into every human being that is not so cut and dried as his 'harm axiom'.

Explain sociopaths and psychopaths then? Evolution has a pretty good stab at this.

I am Bi-Polar, give me the God's honest truth on the hell I've lived through.

And I still submit that you and I are more moral than the god of your book and the god you think you talk to.

If we met, we would probably have a nice time and agree on many things. Why would you think I think that?

To be fair, the planet is bi polar. It has two poles . HA I MADE A FUNNY!  Big Grin Tongue
Reply
RE: Objective morality as a proper basic belief
@Jack

Interesting thing about that, and while it's important to say that conclusive findings regarding a nuerological theory of sociopathy are far, far from robust - a recent fmri study of something like 100 inmates showed that areas of the brain associated with empathy both failed to "light" and failed to make the expected connections to areas associated with decision making in subjects considered to have an average or normal psychological profile.  It's important to note here that this would not mean they were incapable of morality or moral reasoning (objective or otherwise)..but that, at the very least, they were disadvantaged.  Their subjective agency was either damaged or under/abnormally developed.  More than that, the higher they scored into the realm of psycopathy, the more likely the fmri was to show the parts of their brains associated with pleasure lit.  

It appears that some of these poor motherfuckers may have permanently crossed wires. Their "built in system" is either missing or malfunctioning. OTOH, there have probably been a fair few people diagnosed with either that had no crossed wires, no damage or chemical imbalance, just assholes.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply



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