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RE: What is required for a human organism to be considered a rights bearer?
July 5, 2017 at 2:45 pm
(This post was last modified: July 5, 2017 at 2:50 pm by Amarok.)
A person with a broken leg is not living inside someone else and using there body
Not to mention the there is a difference between development and injury
Seek strength, not to be greater than my brother, but to fight my greatest enemy -- myself.
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RE: What is required for a human organism to be considered a rights bearer?
July 5, 2017 at 3:19 pm
(This post was last modified: July 5, 2017 at 3:23 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
@OP Q
Pretty simple, actually. All of our rights are based upon the notion of "natural persons". There's nothing tricky about it. People, who are born, and exist, then by sheer weight of their existence have claim to rights. You, me, Bob down the corner.
Juridical persons (say, corporations) are persons only in that the rights extended to them are inarguably -not- extended to them because they are actual "natural persons" (no one, I hope, argues that Coca Cola is a person the same way that John Q Citizen is a person - and even as Juan Domingo Ciudadano is a person) but because they are organizations comprised of such natural people as Juan and John.
So, what would be required, at a minimum, is juridical personhood - which a human fetus already has. It shares some characteristics with a natural person, it;s definitely related to or comprised of natural persons...but not all - and is thusly afforded some protection under law (which is why elective abortions the day before the due date can be legislated against), but not all protections under law.
The next step, would be natural personhood - which I suppose is the holy grail for anti-abortion nuts...but -still- wouldn't solve their problems........lemme splain, lol.
Supposing some jurisdiction did grant the status of natural personhood to a fetus...the rulings which have permitted abortion and prohibited full anti-abortion laws would still stand. Why? Because they actually aren't based, at least not in full, on the idea that a fetus is not a person -juridical or natural (or any moral argument)..but upon the compelling interest of the state in cases of conflicting interest -between- juridical or natural persons and -other- natural persons....such as the mother.
Ta-da.
(IOW, anti abortion activists are fucked, hard, fundamentally)
*any of our resident forum shithouse lawyers feel free to come clean that up, up above, it;s been a long..loooooong time for me.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: What is required for a human organism to be considered a rights bearer?
July 5, 2017 at 4:55 pm
(This post was last modified: July 5, 2017 at 4:56 pm by Astonished.)
Anyone bring up mental capability? I'm curious about this because I have a friend whose much younger brother is completely mentally debilitated from oxygen deprivation during a swimming accident and is completely dependent upon their parents and expensive medical equipment for absolutely everything. He seems to feel that this sibling's life is a pointless existence and his parents are wasting time and energy that he and his other sibling could have been given growing up if not for the disabled sibling. Recently I learned my foster mother's friend has a full-grown adult son who has been in that same vegetative condition since his late teens (but that guy's loaded and can afford all sorts of extravagances for his son) and I have gotten to have first-hand conversations with him about the experience of being a parent of a fully lifelong dependent 'child' of those extreme special needs, and it didn't sound that bad (granted, that was given that it wasn't outside his ability to afford).
So I've heard good and bad perspectives surrounding this sort of thing. Are there any arguments that differ at all from the standard abortion ones or is it all pretty much the same regardless of what level of mental ability a person has and whether there is any chance of improvement or recovery?
Religions were invented to impress and dupe illiterate, superstitious stone-age peasants. So in this modern, enlightened age of information, what's your excuse? Or are you saying with all your advantages, you were still tricked as easily as those early humans?
---
There is no better way to convey the least amount of information in the greatest amount of words than to try explaining your religious views.
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RE: What is required for a human organism to be considered a rights bearer?
July 5, 2017 at 5:53 pm
(July 4, 2017 at 11:09 pm)Losty Wrote: Must. Resist. Urge to merge threads. Lol. Do you really need 3 threads for this??
I was just recently bragging in the staff lounge about our impressive lack of abortion thread and you come to shit in my Apple Jacks.
IMO rights should go to humans that have been born and are still alive.
Why? If ever it was called for this is the time!
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RE: What is required for a human organism to be considered a rights bearer?
July 5, 2017 at 5:58 pm
(This post was last modified: July 5, 2017 at 6:18 pm by Thumpalumpacus.)
(July 4, 2017 at 10:57 pm)DogmaticDownSouth Wrote: Thanks for the kind reply here, I torched you on another thread because you questioned my honesty.
I don't take kindly to that
I try to be polite and will continue to if treated that way, but when my integrity is impugned, I tend to lash out, You can only take me at my word, but I would ask, based on my questions and responses, what would you say that I have brought up that would make me a troll?
I value opinoins because people have them. Can I only ask for opinions of people I know?
Have you even read my introduction page? I posted my motives clearly there and would refer you to it.
But just becuase you don't understand or didn't bother to find out does not give you cause or right question my integrity. If my actions or words lead to that conclusion, then I will own that, but I would then ask you to specify what action or words did so.
Thanks
Again, you are not in charge of doling out the "right" to question anyone's integrity. If you don't like my take on you and your purpose here, feel free to ignore me. I see loaded questions and not-so-subtle insults to the entire forum here in some of your posts. Those are two standard-issue tools in a troll's toolkit. I see you requesting a question to be answered when it's already been answered -- another favorite tactic.
(July 4, 2017 at 10:57 pm)DogmaticDownSouth Wrote: I have not asked a question about in relation to anyone else, these are suppositions and leaps that you are making, not me. I only ask what is required to be considerd a bearer of human rights? What part of that questions states that one takes precidence over another?
It's rather built into the entire discussion of mother's rights vs embryo's rights, because they can obviously not be equal.
To answer your pared-down question, I'd argue that one should enjoy human rights when one is a living, breathing human. I'd also point out that the nature of the relationship between mother and fetus means that inherently the fetus cannot enjoy many human rights (indeed, here in America most minors do not enjoy the full panoply of adult rights).
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RE: What is required for a human organism to be considered a rights bearer?
July 5, 2017 at 6:18 pm
Honestly, it seems to me that kids these days are not viable until they hit the age of about 30.
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RE: What is required for a human organism to be considered a rights bearer?
July 5, 2017 at 6:31 pm
(This post was last modified: July 5, 2017 at 7:23 pm by Thumpalumpacus.)
(July 5, 2017 at 6:18 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Honestly, it seems to me that kids these days are not viable until they hit the age of about 30.
Your Clint is showing.
![[Image: disgusted-clint-eastwood.gif]](https://images.weserv.nl/?url=gifrific.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F09%2Fdisgusted-clint-eastwood.gif)
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RE: What is required for a human organism to be considered a rights bearer?
July 5, 2017 at 6:55 pm
My 6 foot 4 college educated white brother is living with me and driving my car on my insurance.
-he has a point
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: What is required for a human organism to be considered a rights bearer?
July 5, 2017 at 7:03 pm
There is difference between development and disability
Seek strength, not to be greater than my brother, but to fight my greatest enemy -- myself.
Inuit Proverb
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RE: What is required for a human organism to be considered a rights bearer?
July 5, 2017 at 7:18 pm
(July 5, 2017 at 6:31 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: (July 5, 2017 at 6:18 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Honestly, it seems to me that kids these days are not viable until they hit the age of about 30.
Your Clint is showing.
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