Processing our mortality

[bennyboy]

It did; thank you.  You explained my angst better than I did.  It IS that broader paradox that frightens me.  It's not so much about a world, or an earth without me (as people have graciously, and correctly reminded me that my memory will live on in those I've loved), but this notion that crossing from existence into non-existence, from the experiencer's POV is indiscernible from not ever having experienced existence in the first place.  Some day I will not even have been a blip on my own radar, because there will be no radar. The utter intangibility of it is...as you said, mind boggling.

Sometimes I feel that not only is existence a mistake, but that consciousness itself is an evolutionary abomination.  How cruel is a trait (is it incorrect to call consciousness a trait?) that gives us, and only us the ability to comprehend and consider the cessation of our very existence?  Or the ability to ponder existence at all?  

I have a couple more ideas about this stuff. One is whether the child "me" is dead, non-existent but not exactly "dead," or exists in an evolved form in my adult state. What exactly is it that gives the sense of continuity from moment to moment? One might for shorthand just say "memory," but I don't think just remembering past similar states really is identical to the experiential sense of continuity we have.

In discussing the idea of an "eternal soul" or something, I'd suggest there are two kinds of eternity-- one in which you really have time stretching forward forever in this Universe, i.e. in which you are a god; but a different kind wherein time is meaningless-- for example for a photon, or for a black hole, or for the Big Bang singularity and MAYBE for ideas/events/etc. which aren't forced by consciousness to march in an ordered set from moment to moment. After all, you can only have an end to things when time is defined. It seems to me plausible that since everything is connected, that "you-ness" is more pervasive than it seems when you look at it through the eyes of a confused monkey stepping through moments in life.

I know this may be mocked for wild woo speculation, but it seems to me that losing and gaining consciousness might be something like the experiential equivalent of entering/escaping a singularity: everything is undefined. . . until it IS defined.

[Mister Agenda]

I had open-heart surgery in 2001 and was deeply anaesthetized. Nine hours passed, but to me it was seconds. In some sense 'I' was suppressed for that time. That gave me a better grasp of what it's like to be dead. It's like nothing at all. Never another thought, just off like a light bulb unscrewed and dropped on pavement, no coming back on. I still have a normal fear of dying, but am utterly unafraid of being dead. I won't be around for that part.

[bennyboy]

I had open-heart surgery in 2001 and was deeply anaesthetized. Nine hours passed, but to me it was seconds. In some sense 'I' was suppressed for that time. That gave me a better grasp of what it's like to be dead. It's like nothing at all. Never another thought, just off like a light bulb unscrewed and dropped on pavement, no coming back on. I still have a normal fear of dying, but am utterly unafraid of being dead. I won't be around for that part.

Here's a super-scary thought.

I don't know if the jury's in or out on this, but I heard something disturbing way back when i was in college.  After some research, they found that it seemed people WERE conscious during surgery under anaesthetization, but that due to effects of the drug on memory, they couldn't recall the event later.

That kind of goes back to the comments about memory in my last post-- just because you don't remember something doesn't mean there wasn't something.  Sometimes I have a vague sense that there is a kind of minimal awareness even in deep sleep, but the sensation of it evaporates on waking up, because it doesn't engage those parts of the brain involved in memory at all.

--edit--
Here's a random article that google popped up when I searched for this just now:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2683150/

[LadyForCamus]

Maybe you could volunteer in some capacity with the dying. Want to come hold my hand in twenty years or so?

I actually worked as a clinical dietitian at a nursing home for two years after earning my license, so I've had exposure to it. I worked with a lot of hospice/palliative care patients during my time there and I've witnessed people actively dying, but I don't feel that that has eased my discomfort at all, because I was very good at compartmentalizing those experiences as a way of protecting myself.

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If it's any consolations, we'll all get a kind of resurrection when the zombie apocalypse happens, anyway.

Dude, my husband is READY for the zombie apocalypse. He says the mall is where you need to be for the greatest chance of survival, but I think he's watched too many movies. Everyone knows they eventually heard you to roof. Come ON. Amateurs.

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It seems meaningless to point out that we have an impact. Yes, our children, should we have any, will remember us. And perhaps grandchildren or even great grandchildren. And then what? Eventually, the ripples that you make are so small and far away....and really, really eventually, in the longest run, this planet will be eaten by the sun, perhaps humans will never get off it. Then what is the point?

Exactly this. And I always feel silly taking it out that far in my mind, because it's something so completely abstract and out of our control, but I can't help it.

At the same time, there isn't anything you can do about it. The only answer I've come up with after years of this struggle is that if it doesn't matter, then the meaninglessness is also meaningless, if you catch my drift. We exist NOW, and may as well have as good existence as we can, and help others do the same.

You're right. What's the only alternative? Suicide? That goes against the grain of our very DNA. Camus talked about making that philosophical choice between life and death in the face of the absurd, but I think it's less philosophical than we believe, and even less of a choice. The drive to continue living is biological.

The mental struggle with this nihilistic idea is never ending for me.

Don't take this the wrong way, but your suffering comforts me, lol. I just mean I feel sometimes that I'm the only one who struggles with this. It's just nice to know I'm not alone. Are we maladjusted? Or is it just that certain personality types have an inherently more difficult time managing the anxiety? Would we die first in the wild? [emoji14]

you ever need to talk to someone about your feelings about meaninglessness, please feel free to PM me. ~hugs~

Thank you so much for the outreach, and for opening up here. I may just do that. Perhaps talking through it with someone who is in the same place mentally can help us both.

*hugs*

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You're born
You die
They mourn
Goodbye

My epitaph, right here, lol.

[LadyForCamus]

I approach the question of death from a purely practical perspective namely that it is inevitable so worrying about it is just a waste of mental energy. I see no objective meaning to existence
at all but this is for me a neutral position rather than a negative one because it allows me to give subjective meaning to my own existence if I so choose. The problem with applying meaning
in any objective sense is that it begs the question by assuming such a thing exists. The randomness which allowed life to develop is evidence that it does not. I accept this unconditionally so
I do not think we are in any way special. We are just biological organisms with a finite life span just the same as any other. Death is merely the consequence of that. Furthermore everything
eventually dies. Planets. Stars. Galaxies. It is therefore no big deal and should not be treated as something that is for it is simply a transition from one state to another. We only think it a big
deal because we are afraid of it. But like with any irrational fear once it is rationalised the fear no longer exists. The dead never worry about being dead any way. And nor should anyone else

From an intellectual perspective, I completely agree with everything you said here, and I understand it is most likely the closest thing to a "true" interpretation of reality that we may ever get to. Death is a biological process, just as life is. It's perfectly natural, and every living thing will eventually experience it. Perhaps it's more of a deep sadness that I feel, than a fear; knowing a time will come when I will have seen my children for the last time, or enjoyed my last piece of cake; that my experiencing of loved ones is finite. It's a grief that I still can't wrap my mind around.

Are you new, Surreptitious? I don't recall seeing you around these parts! Hiya!

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Keep poopingout kids. That's the only way I know of to be immortal in some fashion.

Pooping out kids?!

Brewer, I think it's time we sit down together and have that talk about the birds and bees. [emoji13]

[The Grand Nudger]

Personally, I think that life that -doesn't- possess consciousness, or possess relatively diminished consciousness got the cruel end of the evolutionary stick.  Ever notice that how poorly something goes between two creatures very often toes the line with which of them has greater mental faculties?  

There's a reason fish keep getting stuck on hooks.  A reason that the fastest deer keep getting shot.  

Perhaps, had they the ability to more thoroughly contemplate their own mortality (I'm pretty sure every sentient creature is familiar with the fear of death) they wouldn't end up being the victim of it with such alarming frequency. In the meanwhile (as in, between now and whenever we all invariably bite that bullet), while our mental faculties do cause us anguish I feel that this feature (not a bug) of the system is vastly outweighed by the amount of joy the same apparatus brings us. The idea of it's loss is, after all, what's causing you grief in this case. If life and death were all doom and gloom we'd find ourselves rushing towards it headlong - but we don't.

[LadyForCamus]

I had open-heart surgery in 2001 and was deeply anaesthetized. Nine hours passed, but to me it was seconds. In some sense 'I' was suppressed for that time. That gave me a better grasp of what it's like to be dead. It's like nothing at all. Never another thought, just off like a light bulb unscrewed and dropped on pavement, no coming back on. I still have a normal fear of dying, but am utterly unafraid of being dead. I won't be around for that part.

Wow, MA. That's some serious shit. I'm glad your bulb came back on, so to speak. [emoji846] I had surgery in 2005; not 9 hours long, hell; but I know what you mean. It's like losing time. You wake up, and it's like rejoining the mortal coil.

Perhaps it's our irrational attempt to imagine non-experience that is the source of anxiety for some people. Of course, we can't ever know what it's like to be dead, because being dead isn't being anything. We, with our conscious experience (by its definition), cannot experience non-experience, if that makes sense to anyone. It's like saying, how does it feel for cold to be hot, or what's it like for light to be dark? It's nonsense.

Trying to imagine what non-existence is like, is as illogical as trying to imagine, "nothing rather than something."

So, I guess I'd probably feel better if I stopped trying.

[The Grand Nudger]

Uncertainty and the unknown causes anxiety in human beings for legitimate evolutionary reasons.  There's little that invokes those feelings more than death.  It's pretty much the definition of uncertain anxiety,...in that not only are we uncertain..we lose the -ability- of certitude in death.

[WinterHold]

It's about the time you are awake; mainly you experience death every night when you sleep.

Thinking about that might make you work for the times you are awake, use your instincts to try make that time better, either by fighting the trolls that ruin your life and the life of others, or by building something useful, or by helping others, or by doing them all.

Due to my beliefs; I do think and believe that asking the self "why do I exist" question, is one thing so human.. asking the self about morality follows. Or is even parallel with the former.

We sleep daily. Why would death be any different ? It is so ignorant to judge what we don't know. Parallel universes, this, that, it will be too strange not to question yourself though.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Given the choice between death and immortality, death doesn't seem like the worse choice to me.

Of course, I'll never know, so worrying about it isn't something I do. Today is the present -- unwrap it and enjoy it.