The need to believe?

[*Deidre*]

Most everyone here knows my ''story,'' but the nutshell version is that I grew up in a Christian home, and thought I believed most of what I was taught. As an adult, I've questioned like anyone does, but about five years ago, I came to the conclusion that Christianity was built on man made lies, and that the Bible really is a book designed by men to control other men. Religion is a powerful tool to control others. Then, my grandmother died a little over two years ago, and when she became ill, I was an atheist at that time, and it was then that I started to feel emotionally lost as an non-believer. Logically, atheism was still ''it'' for me, but emotionally, dealing with the loss of my grandmother was just hard. Despite having quite a few atheist friends, I couldn't find any solace in regards to processing my grandmother's death. So, I started looking into other beliefs system like Buddhism and even Islam. Without going into a lot of details, I have always felt this need to believe. Like if I don't believe, something bad will happen. Thanks to my indoctrinated childhood, I've always felt like something outside of myself should solve my problems, or come to my rescue. I'm not ''good enough'' on my own. In organized religion, the teachings revolve around how you're simply not good enough to do anything on your own, and you need this Great Comforter to help you. And when you believe it, it IS comforting. But, why do I need this belief? Logically, there is no proof that a deity exists, but why must I tell myself that one does? I felt almost two years ago, like I had an actual spiritual experience, and now I wonder...was I creating that experience because I've missed the emotional comfort that faith brought to me? And looking back, there likely was a logical explanation for what happened ut I applied a supernatural answer to it.

My mind and heart never really ''agreed'' when it came to my atheist position five years ago, and when I come to this site, or hang out with my friends who are atheists, there is comfort in logic. Simple logic. But, we're not only logical people, the sum total of our lives isn't built around our intellects. We have emotions, and while they shouldn't govern us, they are important. So, where I'm at right now is that I want to believe that God exists. Or a god. I'm not following any religion, don't go to church, etc. Yet, I feel a pull towards spirituality. I've been reading about ''spiritual atheism'' and wonder if it is an actual thing. Can an atheist, also be spiritual? Can someone logically come to a conclusion that a god doesn't exist, yet wishes to believe that one does? Have any of you felt this way, do you ever wish you believed, or have had a desire to believe, yet logically, you know that the concept is absurd? Is there no meaningful way to reconcile the two?

One of my friends recently said to me (he is an atheist, always has been) that he thinks it's interesting that I feel that everyone is on a ''faith journey,'' for he has never felt that way. He said that there is no journey of faith for him, he accepts his lack of belief, and doesn't try to ''fix it.'' He said that he thinks I'm trying to ''fix'' something inside of me, as if there is something wrong with not believing in a god. And that struck me so hard, he is right, I guess. When I was an atheist, intellectually and logically, I felt fine. I had no issues with my concluding that a god likely doesn't exist, but emotionally, I've always felt empty not believing. Just being honest. Because I was taught to put God in the everyday, human void that we all probably experience from time to time. ''God of the gaps,'' plugging God into the painful gaps of my life. So, that's where I'm at right now, and wonder if I'm alone in these thoughts. 

Thanks for listening, and if you have any thoughts, I'd be happy to hear them.

[The Grand Nudger]

Imma take some time to parse all of this, and get back to ya, busy..but just wanted to thumbs up a long post with alot put into it.

[mordant]

my grandmother died a little over two years ago, and when she became ill, I was an atheist at that time, and it was then that I started to feel emotionally lost as an non-believer. Logically, atheism was still ''it'' for me, but emotionally, dealing with the loss of my grandmother was just hard.

I think it may come down to styles of relating to and coping with one's reality. I was recruited into evangelical Christianity three months shy of my sixth birthday at an after-school "good news club". Despite my young age, I remember quite clearly that it was presented to me, and accepted as, a logical proposition (except that my younger self, of course, could not see the logical fallacies I was buying into). I was a sinner, god offered free forgiveness for the asking, why wouldn't I take it? It was not an emotional moment. It was just a believed offer that it seemed to me at the time was dumb not to take up.

In the ensuing years, I attended church, learned all the doctrines, and after high school even attended a Bible Institute in the midwest. I was active in volunteer work at church, running their media and playing the organ for services, etc.

My eventual exit from the faith, which got underway in earnest in my mid-twenties, was equally heady in nature. I married at 19, with no clearer notion of what marital success entailed than that I should marry "a good Christian girl" and all would be well. Unfortunately my good Christian girl took a sharp left turn into severe mental illness. Fifteen years and two children later that marriage fell apart. I remarried and the 2nd time around I ended up widowed. Somewhere in there my mother and a close friend also died in separate car accidents and my oldest brother, an elder of his church, died of an unexplained aggressive cancer. Through this period of my life I came to realize that religious faith is a failed epistemology that does not lead towards truth, and does not explain or predict experienced reality. I left the faith for the same reasons I joined it: as a child, becoming a Christian relieved the mild cognitive dissonance of fearing god's punishment; deconverting was a matter of escaping the cognitive dissonance that prayer was indistinguishable in practice from random happenstance, the promises of god were indistinguishable from wishful thinking, and my dogma of choice did not explain or predict experienced reality. Also, my religious faith had clearly not prepared me for the Real World, which is not always the friendly and comprehensible place my faith had suggested it was: believe in god, obey him, be kind and good, and all will ultimately be well. Things were not well for me. At. All.

You on the other hand, whether through good luck or youth or both (I'm 60 now), as well as through being perhaps a less heady person than I, have found faith mostly a comfort thus far. Also, unlike me, you haven't been forced to face down the fact of mortality as much as I have. How would you have responded to your grandmother's death if you had never been an atheist and always a Christian? Rather than missing the faux comfort of the faith, you would have had to deal with the useless "why" questions: why grandma, why now, what did she / I do to deserve this, why did she suffer. All of these assume an intelligent agent who has claims on you and grandma and must be appeased or pleased or at least not pissed off.  Now assume it wasn't grandma, but mom, or a young sister or niece, or a fiance or spouse, who hasn't had the opportunity to live most of their life, and imagine how THAT feels. God is supposed to protect you and yours, supposed to bless those who bless him and curse those who curse him, so what is THIS fresh horror??

It's all a matter of perspective.

Once I exited the faith for the proximal reasons discussed above, I had the opportunity to consider my relationship to reality, and I have come to the conclusion that dealing in reality, even when it's bare-metal (sometimes, bare-knuckle) reality and not pleasant, is better in the long run than leaning on religious faith, which never seems to deliver for me. Your mileage can, and will, vary.

I wish you well on your journey. Ultimately you should do what makes you happy, whether or not I or anyone else agrees with it. But make sure that happiness is sustainable and doesn't avoid the parts of reality you don't like. Make sure you aren't disappointed when life throws you a curve ball and your belief system can only deflect and evade the issue rather than actually help or comfort you.

Moderator Notice
Fixed quote

[The Grand Nudger]

Most everyone here knows my ''story,'' but the nutshell version is that I grew up in a Christian home, and thought I believed most of what I was taught. As an adult, I've questioned like anyone does, but about five years ago, I came to the conclusion that Christianity was built on man made lies, and that the Bible really is a book designed by men to control other men. Religion is a powerful tool to control others. Then, my grandmother died a little over two years ago, and when she became ill, I was an atheist at that time, and it was then that I started to feel emotionally lost as an non-believer. Logically, atheism was still ''it'' for me, but emotionally, dealing with the loss of my grandmother was just hard. Despite having quite a few atheist friends, I couldn't find any solace in regards to processing my grandmother's death. So, I started looking into other beliefs system like Buddhism and even Islam. Without going into a lot of details, I have always felt this need to believe. Like if I don't believe, something bad will happen. Thanks to my indoctrinated childhood, I've always felt like something outside of myself should solve my problems, or come to my rescue. I'm not ''good enough'' on my own. In organized religion, the teachings revolve around how you're simply not good enough to do anything on your own, and you need this Great Comforter to help you. And when you believe it, it IS comforting. But, why do I need this belief? Logically, there is no proof that a deity exists, but why must I tell myself that one does? I felt almost two years ago, like I had an actual spiritual experience, and now I wonder...was I creating that experience because I've missed the emotional comfort that faith brought to me? And looking back, there likely was a logical explanation for what happened ut I applied a supernatural answer to it.

Probably giving the bible somewhat of a short shrift on this...as yes, it's been used by people to control others, but it;s purpose (top me, at least) seems to have been a commentary on the human condition.  Stories that make little sense or, taken literally, are nothing more than paltry miracles burst with allegory and metaphor.  Grief is a recurring theme, for example, and here you are, full of grief eh?  Bad things will happen whether you believe or not..this isn;t so much a logical conclusion as it is a statement of fact that we're all very aware of.  Logically, speaking..speaking of logic..there's no need that any part of your experience or internal process -be- logical.  Human experiences, particularly emotional experiences..are very often not logical but no less compelling or meaningful for being so.  Do you still feel as though you aren't good enough to do anything on your own?  I ask because I wonder whether or not this sticks...and I do think that a person can read the same texts and come out with an entirely different appraisal of themselves. Similarly, I don't know that you -need- belief, so much as you want belief..particularly in that you've tied it to loss and comfort.  We all want comfort in loss, even if we may not need it.  What, if you don't mind..was your spiritual experience?  Like before, there needn't be a logical explanation...I'm just curious about spiritual experiences that people have.  

My mind and heart never really ''agreed'' when it came to my atheist position five years ago, and when I come to this site, or hang out with my friends who are atheists, there is comfort in logic. Simple logic. But, we're not only logical people, the sum total of our lives isn't built around our intellects. We have emotions, and while they shouldn't govern us, they are important. So, where I'm at right now is that I want to believe that God exists. Or a god. I'm not following any religion, don't go to church, etc. Yet, I feel a pull towards spirituality. I've been reading about ''spiritual atheism'' and wonder if it is an actual thing. Can an atheist, also be spiritual? Can someone logically come to a conclusion that a god doesn't exist, yet wishes to believe that one does? Have any of you felt this way, do you ever wish you believed, or have had a desire to believe, yet logically, you know that the concept is absurd? Is there no meaningful way to reconcile the two?

I feel you here, my mind and heart find themselves at odds constantly.  I usually follow the latter...though it never leads to god belief..or revolves around god belief, in my case.  I know..for example, that  I should ring my cats neck in his sleep..he's sick and old and in pain......but I can't bring myself to do it.  I put pain killers in his wetfood (the kittens are forced to subsist on dry gruel) that I get from a bovine vet buddy.  Shhhh, don't tell anybody I'm a big softy about Grey Cat.  I even named one of the kittens Grey Cat...so that when he dies, I still have Grey Cat.  Unfortunately people aren't so interchangeable.  My father died a few years ago, I got the call..I was calm as a hindu cow...but as soon as I hung up I wailed like a common heeb and threw my head into the pillow.  I kept thinking (and saying, more sobbing) "I had questions".  My wife was there.  It lasted for maybe an hour, then I put it away and got to the business of putting his body away. I guess this all happened right before I joined the boards...part of me joining was just reaching out and talking to people.  I'm intensely private with my emotions pretty much everywhere but here.  You guys might know more about me than the wifey does.  That's hardly a logical response to grief or marriage...but I don't refer to logic in my day to day life.  I rarely find the need.  You'll never catch me naming a fallacy in conversation with a drinking buddy.  
In any case, spiritual atheism most certainly does exist..particularly in that "spirits" aren't gods...so there's no real disconnect there.  Additionally...it;s entirely likely that a person like myself..who doesn't believe in spirits -or- gods..has an emotional analog for everything you attach to either of those two concepts.  Personally, and I've shared this with one other person on the boards thusfar...coming up like I came up with all these wonderful stories about different gods from different times and places and cultures..yeah./..sure, some of them I think would be a hoot.  There's an amount of disappointment to find that the magic spell doesn't work - for me most of that is years in the past, I guess.  A jackal headed psychopomp that presides over the weighing of a soul against Ma'at..the feather of truth....it would be interesting if nothing else.  If Hecate appeared at the circle...if Diana worked her magic into a love spell.  If Quetzacoatl was really knocked from the sky by a jaguar.  If Marduk and Tiamat engaged in an epic battle and in so doing created the cosmos.  If Loki was truly chained for the murder of Baldur as part of a drunken prank, with the venom of a serpent dripping in his eyes until the world ends and Fenrir is loosed.  The world would be a very interesting place.  I guess it;s a love hate thng for me..because, as stories, part of me would enjoy it very much if they were true....but then there's the bad shit that makes me happy they aren't.  Worse, there's the actions of believers regardless that make me lose the kind of faith I do have, not in gods..and not without evidence or illogically...in my fellow man.  That's my religion..if I had a religion.  That's the god I would wish to be true.  The god of unity, of all of us, all together or not at all.  The chain that cannot be broken and the wave that cannot be resisted, the inexorable force of human joy and happiness that everything falls before and under.  Terrible at times..downright murderous, but even in our inequity noble...beautiful.  Human.  

One of my friends recently said to me (he is an atheist, always has been) that he thinks it's interesting that I feel that everyone is on a ''faith journey,'' for he has never felt that way. He said that there is no journey of faith for him, he accepts his lack of belief, and doesn't try to ''fix it.'' He said that he thinks I'm trying to ''fix'' something inside of me, as if there is something wrong with not believing in a god. And that struck me so hard, he is right, I guess. When I was an atheist, intellectually and logically, I felt fine. I had no issues with my concluding that a god likely doesn't exist, but emotionally, I've always felt empty not believing. Just being honest. Because I was taught to put God in the everyday, human void that we all probably experience from time to time. ''God of the gaps,'' plugging God into the painful gaps of my life. So, that's where I'm at right now, and wonder if I'm alone in these thoughts. 

Thanks for listening, and if you have any thoughts, I'd be happy to hear them.

Well, maybe you are trying to fix something inside of you.  I could tell you that whatever that is a god won't fix it, a god has never fixed it.  Christ never "fixed" a sinner..for example...they're still sinners.  However, my telling you that won't matter much if you feel..even on the off chance, that it -might- work, eh?   Personally, I'm full to bursting with every emotion just walking through a grocery store and people watching.  There's no need, or room, for make believe gods...there's probably no room for real gods, if they existed.  They would be background noise to me, like a car starting in the distance or all the stars in the sky.  They would be the backdrop of human drama....not the focal point.  I fill my "human void" with human relationships.  I fill it with things that would help people..or myself.  God not being one of those things..having never been one of those things.  Not for me, and in truth, imo, not for anyone. Ultimately, that last bit stands even if there are gods.

(which there aren't, so suck it up )

[Silver]

I have no experience with that need to believe.

My family was religious, but religion was not the most important aspect of our lives. We stopped going to church when I was around ten or so, and religion was never a topic of discussion in our household.

It was easy for me to shed belief in god without feeling as though I could not cope without it.

The need to believe is a deeply psychological and emotional issue, no doubt, but I have other issues that are not religious in nature.

[ignoramus]

D, It sounds like residual feelings of religious memories.
Why fight it? Believe in a god. As long as it's not the genocidal tyrant from the bible whom GC states that 'he cannot sin'. A made up God though will give you no satisfaction. I believe you are still fighting your indoctrination.

[Whateverist]

I think I'll sleep on it before answering.  Interesting post, Deidre.  Good luck finding your way.  

Any chance you'd be interested in a book recommendation?

[*Deidre*]

D, It sounds like residual feelings of religious memories.
Why fight it? Believe in a god. As long as it's not the genocidal tyrant from the bible whom GC states that 'he cannot sin'. A made up God though will give you no satisfaction. I believe you are still fighting your indoctrination.

I'm thinking you're right on the indoctrination part. :/
I had posted a longer response to you, but I must have done something wrong, the replies didn't post with the quote.

I think I'll sleep on it before answering.  Interesting post, Deidre.  Good luck finding your way.  

Any chance you'd be interested in a book recommendation?

Hey whateverist, definitely would be interested, especially if you have read any books whereby the authors are atheists, and they've gone through a long and winding road to finally accept their position. I thought I had accepted it, and then my grandmother died...and I went searching again for something to escape into maybe. She meant a lot to me, like...guided me. She was a devout Catholic lol but, she respected my choice as an atheist back then. If she hadn't died, if we could go through life pain free...would I have ever questioned atheism? Would I have been uncomfortable? But, life isn't pain-free and obviously, that's not realistic.

[Whateverist]

I think I'll sleep on it before answering.  Interesting post, Deidre.  Good luck finding your way.  

Any chance you'd be interested in a book recommendation?

Hey whateverist, definitely would be interested, especially if you have read any books whereby the authors are atheists, and they've gone through a long and winding road to finally accept their position. I thought I had accepted it, and then my grandmother died...and I went searching again for something to escape into maybe. She meant a lot to me, like...guided me. She was a devout Catholic lol but, she respected my choice as an atheist back then. If she hadn't died, if we could go through life pain free...would I have ever questioned atheism? Would I have been uncomfortable?  But, life isn't pain-free and obviously, that's not realistic.

The book I'm thinking of is by an author known for his spirituality, and he has written a boatload of them.  Alan Watts is who I have in mind, but I don't recommend any of his books on Taoism or Buddhism and whatever other spiritual disciplines he may have explored.  From a quick look at wikipedia I see that he was born in England, became an Episcopal priest there in 1945 but left that in 1950 and moved to California where he became a member of the American Academy of Asian Studies.

He wrote one book that is basically a meditation on our craving for what we cannot have: certainty in regard to so many of the big questions.  It's called "The Wisdom of Insecurity".  Reading it might convince you that the craving for certainty is common and can be accommodated in a lot of ways, dogmatic religion being one way.  But a "life is nothing but.." approach would be another way to buttress oneself with an equally dissatisfying sense of certainty.  I was probably 25 when I read it.  I think it changed what I was looking for since it convinced me that the only possible security is false security in one form or another.  

If you decide to read it I would love to discuss it with you in PM any time.

[Angrboda]