Four proofs of the nonexistence of God

[Mister Agenda]

We don't know it for sure. There's a hypothesis gaining ground the the universe is eternal, which could be true in several different ways. What we see as an origin point may simply be the limits of a cyclic process, or may arise out of the multiverse. Time breaks down and has no meaning at the extremes of the Big Bang or the heat death of the universe, so has no real endpoints. The math indicates that time as we know it doesn't exist as you approach the BB and it is meaningless at the other end of things where everything is evenly distributed and inactive, so there is no way to measure or utilize time.

Just another example where actual reality is more amazing than bronze age fairy tales.

As for how that would "prove" there's no god, it wouldn't. God isn't necessary to explain reality, after all. In any case, your god is an unfalsifiable proposition, so I can't make any supportable knowledge claim for or against it. I can only say there's no substantiation for it and therefore no valid reason to afford belief to it.

An actual past infinite number of cause/effect events is not logically possible. We would never have gotten to the present event. There must be a first cause.

Can you provide a mathematical proof for that? If not, all you know is that it violates your intuitions and you can't wrap your head around it. Actual reality is not obliged to be intuitive. No apparent paradox has ever prevented reality from working the way it actually does, no matter how illogical it may seem (see Zeno). If there actually is an infinite past sequence of events, then it only seems paradoxical. I've got no investment in an infinite past, I'm just not aware of a proof that it can't be the case.

My personal opinion is that the most likely case is that there is a first cause (and many first causes for other cosmos), and it happened the instant that time began. But I'm comfortable with the possibility that I could be wrong.

---

I asked god over to coffee and cookies, it didn't show. PROOF!

Yesterday on Twitter a theist posted this question, "Surely there are things you are unaware of that are true?"

I responded, "So Angelina Jolie is really secretly in love with me? AWESOME! Now all I have to do get her to tell me that face to face."

I've always like what Hitch said about naked assertions, " That which can be asserted without evidence can be just as easily be dismissed without evidence."

Of course I believe there are things I'm not aware of that are true. The first thing that someone who says that something I'm not aware of his true should do is explain to me how they're aware of it. Then I'll scrutinize their reply and determine if their claim is supported enough to make even considering that it might be true, justified, taking into account Bayesian reasoning.

[Jehanne]

An actual past infinite number of cause/effect events is not logically possible. We would never have gotten to the present event. There must be a first cause.

Can you provide a mathematical proof for that? If not, all you know is that it violates your intuitions and you can't wrap your head around it. Actual reality is obliged to be intuitive. No apparent paradox has ever prevented reality from working the way it actually does, no matter how illogical it may seem (see Zeno). If there actually is an infinite past sequence of events, then it only seems paradoxical. I've got no investment in an infinite past, I'm just not aware of a proof that it can't be the case.

My personal opinion is that the most likely case is that there is a first cause (and many first causes for other cosmos), and it happened the instant that time began. But I'm comfortable with the possibility that I could be wrong.

---

The Universe is probably eternal, without a beginning or an end -- see my posts elsewhere.

Having said that, the "infinitude of the past" have been addressed by Professor Wes Morriston:

http://spot.colorado.edu/~morristo/selected-papers.html

As Dr. Morriston has demonstrated, Craig suffers that same problem with his theistic beliefs as does naturalism.  To help understand this, consider the following mathematical truths that have been proven:

1)  There are an infinite number of prime numbers.

2)  As one progresses from 1 to infinity along the set of natural numbers, the number of primes goes to zero (Prime Number Theorem).

Now, how can there be an infinite number of primes such the number of primes goes to zero?  Answer, it is just that way!  It was Craig himself, in quoting from Vilenkin, who said that a "proof is what it takes to convince an unreasonable man..."  Craig is unreasonable and also very ignorant, which is why he rejects the number zero:

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/William_Lane_Craig

[SteveII]

An actual past infinite number of cause/effect events is not logically possible. We would never have gotten to the present event. There must be a first cause.

Can you provide a mathematical proof for that? If not, all you know is that it violates your intuitions and you can't wrap your head around it. Actual reality is obliged to be intuitive. No apparent paradox has ever prevented reality from working the way it actually does, no matter how illogical it may seem (see Zeno). If there actually is an infinite past sequence of events, then it only seems paradoxical. I've got no investment in an infinite past, I'm just not aware of a proof that it can't be the case.

My personal opinion is that the most likely case is that there is a first cause (and many first causes for other cosmos), and it happened the instant that time began. But I'm comfortable with the possibility that I could be wrong.

Have you ever read about Hilbert's Hotel?

Imagine a hotel with a finite number of rooms. All the rooms are full and a new guest walks in and wants a room. The desk clerk says no rooms are available. The person is turned away. 

Now imagine a hotel that has an infinite number of rooms. All the rooms are filled up so an infinite number of guests. A new guest walks up and wants a room. All the clerk has to to do is to move the guest in room #1 to room #2 and the guest from #2 to #3 and so on so your new guest can have a room #1. You can do this infinite number of times to a hotel that was already full.

Now imagine instead the clerk moves the guest from #1 to #2 and from #2 to #4 and from #3 to #6 (each being moved to a room number twice the original). All the odd number rooms become vacant. You can add an infinite number of new guests to a hotel that was full and end up with it half empty. 

How many people would be in the hotel if the guest in #1 checked out?

If everyone in odd number rooms checks out, how many checked out? How many are left?

Now what if all the guest above room number 3 check out. How many checked out? How many are left?

So from the above we get:
infinity + infinity = infinity
infinity + infinity = infinity/2
infinity - 1 = infinity
infinity / 2 = infinity
infinity - infinity = 3

Conclusion: the idea of an actual infinite is logically absurd.

[Lek]

Your own religion teaches that you are mindless robots in heaven, devoid of free will, never sinning and always worshiping. Do you want to be a without volition for eternity?

Where do you get these ideas from?  It doesn't say any such thing.  According to scripture we're going to be living on a new earth in physical bodies.  Everything we do will be an act of worship of God.  If you want to make statements about what the bible says, why don't you read it first.

---

Actually you don't know if our consciousness survives or not. How would science know?

It probably does not survive.  After all, if a soul exists, why do people get Alzheimer's disease?  Are you saying that a brain that is dead has better memory recall than a brain that is diseased?  Where, ultimately, are our memories stored?  If not our brains, then where?  Or, are you saying that you are going to be some "memory-less soul" when you are dead?

If there is a spiritual "us" that is supernatural, then it can preserve the memories.  If I can accept a soul, then I can easily accept that it would contain the memories of my life as well.  What it really comes down to is whether or not there is a supernatural existence that doesn't follow natural laws.  If you're not open to a supernatural existence and only can think according to natural laws, then you really can't come to an understanding of something that is beyond nature.

[vorlon13]

Can you provide a mathematical proof for that? If not, all you know is that it violates your intuitions and you can't wrap your head around it. Actual reality is obliged to be intuitive. No apparent paradox has ever prevented reality from working the way it actually does, no matter how illogical it may seem (see Zeno). If there actually is an infinite past sequence of events, then it only seems paradoxical. I've got no investment in an infinite past, I'm just not aware of a proof that it can't be the case.

My personal opinion is that the most likely case is that there is a first cause (and many first causes for other cosmos), and it happened the instant that time began. But I'm comfortable with the possibility that I could be wrong.

Have you ever read about Hilbert's Hotel?

Imagine a hotel with a finite number of rooms. All the rooms are full and a new guest walks in and wants a room. The desk clerk says no rooms are available. The person is turned away. 

Now imagine a hotel that has an infinite number of rooms. All the rooms are filled up so an infinite number of guests. A new guest walks up and wants a room. All the clerk has to to do is to move the guest in room #1 to room #2 and the guest from #2 to #3 and so on so your new guest can have a room #1. You can do this infinite number of times to a hotel that was already full.

Now imagine instead the clerk moves the guest from #1 to #2 and from #2 to #4 and from #3 to #6 (each being moved to a room number twice the original). All the odd number rooms become vacant. You can add an infinite number of new guests to a hotel that was full and end up with it half empty. 

How many people would be in the hotel if the guest in #1 checked out?

If everyone in odd number rooms checks out, how many checked out? How many are left?

Now what if all the guest above room number 3 check out. How many checked out? How many are left?

So from the above we get:
infinity + infinity = infinity
infinity + infinity = infinity/2
infinity - 1 = infinity
infinity / 2 = infinity
infinity - infinity = 3

Conclusion: the idea of an actual infinite is logically absurd.

well, we can carve out an exception for infinite torment in an infinite Hell that torments the damned for an infinite amount of time.

no problems with that

[Jehanne]

Your own religion teaches that you are mindless robots in heaven, devoid of free will, never sinning and always worshiping. Do you want to be a without volition for eternity?

Where do you get these ideas from?  It doesn't say any such thing.  According to scripture we're going to be living on a new earth in physical bodies.  Everything we do will be an act of worship of God.  If you want to make statements about what the bible says, why don't you read it first.

---

It probably does not survive.  After all, if a soul exists, why do people get Alzheimer's disease?  Are you saying that a brain that is dead has better memory recall than a brain that is diseased?  Where, ultimately, are our memories stored?  If not our brains, then where?  Or, are you saying that you are going to be some "memory-less soul" when you are dead?

If there is a spiritual "us" that is supernatural, then it can preserve the memories.  If I can accept a soul, then I can easily accept that it would contain the memories of my life as well.  What it really comes down to is whether or not there is a supernatural existence that doesn't follow natural laws.

It's really no different than saying that "Snorky" created the Universe last week and planted all of your memories, thoughts, dreams, etc., in your head/soul.  If the "supernatural" can preserve memories, why is it that people still get Alzheimer's, dementia, etc.?  Why is it that some people lose their ability to form and retain short-term memories but their long-term memories are still intact?  Or, the other way around?  Why is it that people with Broca's aphasia lose their ability to speak, write and sign?  Why is that some people who are in car crashes have their recent memories (such as an engagement and wedding) wiped clean but yet still retain knowledge of their parents, names, siblings?  Why do some brain-injured persons regress four or five grade levels after an accident, going, say, from high school to fourth or fifth grade after a blow to their head?

I could go on but I'll stop here.

---

Have you ever read about Hilbert's Hotel?

Imagine a hotel with a finite number of rooms. All the rooms are full and a new guest walks in and wants a room. The desk clerk says no rooms are available. The person is turned away. 

Now imagine a hotel that has an infinite number of rooms. All the rooms are filled up so an infinite number of guests. A new guest walks up and wants a room. All the clerk has to to do is to move the guest in room #1 to room #2 and the guest from #2 to #3 and so on so your new guest can have a room #1. You can do this infinite number of times to a hotel that was already full.

Now imagine instead the clerk moves the guest from #1 to #2 and from #2 to #4 and from #3 to #6 (each being moved to a room number twice the original). All the odd number rooms become vacant. You can add an infinite number of new guests to a hotel that was full and end up with it half empty. 

How many people would be in the hotel if the guest in #1 checked out?

If everyone in odd number rooms checks out, how many checked out? How many are left?

Now what if all the guest above room number 3 check out. How many checked out? How many are left?

So from the above we get:
infinity + infinity = infinity
infinity + infinity = infinity/2
infinity - 1 = infinity
infinity / 2 = infinity
infinity - infinity = 3

Conclusion: the idea of an actual infinite is logically absurd.

well, we can carve out an exception for infinite torment in an infinite Hell that torments the damned for an infinite amount of time.

no problems with that

I am surprised that theists are still referencing Hilbert's Hotel, which is one of the lamest arguments that Craig has used.  More here:

http://www.skepticink.com/reasonablyfait...te-dreams/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilbert%27...rand_Hotel

[Lek]

It's really no different than saying that "Snorky" created the Universe last week and planted all of your memories, thoughts, dreams, etc., in your head/soul.  If the "supernatural" can preserve memories, why is it that people still get Alzheimer's, dementia, etc.?  Why is it that some people lose their ability to form and retain short-term memories but their long-term memories are still intact?  Or, the other way around?  Why is it that people with Broca's aphasia lose their ability to speak, write and sign?  Why is that some people who are in car crashes have their recent memories (such as an engagement and wedding) wiped clean but yet still retain knowledge of their parents, names, siblings?  Why do some brain-injured persons regress four or five grade levels after an accident, going, say, from high school to fourth or fifth grade after a blow to their head?

The soul is "us". The memory of the soul is the same memory that is stored in our brain. The soul is not the mechanism which we use to gather and store memories.

[vorlon13]

The 'soul' is conveyed via the breath.

[JackRussell]

The 'soul' is conveyed via the breath.

How much does the soul weigh? I am old enough to remember those old Victorian anecdotes.

Your soul is your current brain state, sans brain activity it dies.

If not, I want to meet my old Jack Russell in heaven. He lived a good life and didn't even have to be able to read.

And I want my cats there too, or else there is no divine justice, unless God really loves the local rabbits in the Ashdown Forest?

[mordant]

Your own religion teaches that you are mindless robots in heaven, devoid of free will, never sinning and always worshiping. Do you want to be a without volition for eternity?

Where do you get these ideas from?  It doesn't say any such thing.  According to scripture we're going to be living on a new earth in physical bodies.  Everything we do will be an act of worship of God.  If you want to make statements about what the bible says, why don't you read it first.

Ah, but I have. Several times. I'm a former evangelical.

If we're going to live forever doing nothing but worshipping god, that is exactly the situation you guys say can't be permitted in this life: no free will. I am not aware of any Christians who do nothing but worship god even in this life. In Heaven there will be no sin. There will be no dissent. No one will ever piss god off ever again. Which implies no one will do anything but god's will. Sounds like the very definition of "robot" to me.

If there is a spiritual "us" that is supernatural, then it can preserve the memories.

The supernatural is a useless and illogical concept that is just a fancy word for "magic". So sure, if there's magic, anything is possible.

"Supernatural" is that which is outside of or above the natural world. Anything outside the natural world is inherently non-discussable. The instant you make a knowledge claim that you can substantiate, you are talking about something in the natural world, accessible to your five senses, instrumentation, or mathematical or logical deduction from indirect sources. 100% of everything that has ever been said about "the supernatural" is sheer speculation, by definition. So the concept of "supernatural" is no help to you.

If I can accept a soul, then I can easily accept that it would contain the memories of my life as well.  What it really comes down to is whether or not there is a supernatural existence that doesn't follow natural laws.  If you're not open to a supernatural existence and only can think according to natural laws, then you really can't come to an understanding of something that is beyond nature.

And thankfully, you are right about that. Because the supernatural is indistinguishable from your imagination, and I greatly prefer to hold beliefs according to what is substantiatable, and to minimize confirmation bias. I am not interested in speculating about invisible beings and realms about which there is zero information, by definition.

Again and again, theists protest that if I can just accept X, where X is the soul, or "the supernatural", or merely the existence of their deity of choice, then everything else follows. This is in fact how the failed epistemology known as "religious faith" works. But since it failed to predict or explain experienced reality, I discarded it in favor of more reliable ways of exploring reality than "just believe my unsupported assertions". Indeed, most of what religion offers requires one to "Just believe my unsupportable assertions", because the hypothesis is unfalsifiable to begin with.

---

Conclusion: the idea of an actual infinite is logically absurd.

Then I take it you do not believe your god to be infinite or eternal. Because that would be absurd.