Outrage over NPR's firing of Juan Williams

[orogenicman]

This is twice I had to tell you to go back and read my post. I was making reference to the government throwing money away. My original quote...

And this is twice I've pointed out that your reference to the government throwing away money (i.e., the stimulus) is irrelevant to my question. So, dude, you didn'ty actually answer my question. You simply changed the subject.

...the point being, there's double standard hypocrisy at NPR. It was okay for Nina Totenberg to wish aids on Jesse Helms and his grandchildren, but not okay for Juan Williams to say he got nervous when he saw Muslims in muslim garb on airplanes. After what happened on 9-11, Williams was only stating what a lot of Americans feel. Some journalistic ethics at NPR.

You can't complain about double standards at NPR and then in the same sentence justify the double standards that many Americans have with regard to their bigotry towards all Muslims. That in itself is a double standard. What Juan Williams said was bigoted, plain and simple. Should he have been fired for it? I don't think he should have, but that obviously is not the issue here.

[Tiberius]

How was it bigoted? He said he felt nervous; that is hardly his fault...we can't control how we feel about some things. He then went on to say that Americans should "get over it" (I'm assuming he already has, by the fact he is recommending it).

Now a bigot is "a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion" [1]. Is he being utterly intolerant of Muslims? No. In fact, he's being quite the opposite, saying that Americans should *get over* any nervous feelings they might have about Muslims on planes.

[thesummerqueen]

How was it bigoted? He said he felt nervous; that is hardly his fault...we can't control how we feel about some things. He then went on to say that Americans should "get over it" (I'm assuming he already has, by the fact he is recommending it).

Now a bigot is "a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion" [1]. Is he being utterly intolerant of Muslims? No. In fact, he's being quite the opposite, saying that Americans should *get over* any nervous feelings they might have about Muslims on planes.

Most people don't get that far in their line of thought, sugar.

[chasm]

Billy O'Reilly is an idiot.

[Autumnlicious]

Careful Adrian - if you are afraid of something, you actually hate it.

Hate leads to fear... oh wait, bass ackwards...

Fear leads to hate... Unless you are rational, whereas you recognize your fear as irrational or rational and act on that, instead of blindly applying an illogical emotion.

[orogenicman]

How was it bigoted? He said he felt nervous; that is hardly his fault...we can't control how we feel about some things. He then went on to say that Americans should "get over it" (I'm assuming he already has, by the fact he is recommending it).

Now a bigot is "a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion" [1]. Is he being utterly intolerant of Muslims? No. In fact, he's being quite the opposite, saying that Americans should *get over* any nervous feelings they might have about Muslims on planes.

Juan Williams is a black man. If I said that I felt nervous and scared to see him or any other black man board an airplane, I would think that no one here who is not bigoted against blacks would be defending my position. So to say that he gets nervous when he boards a plane and there are Muslims on it is no different. And recall, he specifically mentioned how they dress. May I remind everyone that those who attacked us on 9/11 weren't dressed like Muslims normally dress. They were dressed in western attire, were clean shaven, and most spoke English. I live in an area of my city where there are a lot of foreigners, including Muslims. I've never had a single problem with any of them. My structural geology professor was an Iranian shiite. One of the nicest guys I've ever met, in fact. The surgeon who operated on my shoulder two weeks ago is an Arab American, born and raised here. And yet, if you were to put him in a line up with the terrorists who attacked us, I doubt that you or I could tell the diffewrence. And my surgeon, believe me, speaks perfect english, better than I do, in fact, and is a fine man. If Juan Willians is afraid when he sees Muslims dressed in traditional attire board a plane that he is on, then his fear is entirely based on ignorance. And discrimination based on fear and ignorance is the very definition of bigotry.

[Autumnlicious]

Poor argument and doesn't invalidate anything Adrian said. Emotions are inherently irrational. And no, if you said that black people made you feel uneasy, or gay people, or anything else, but then admitted that it is just a fear - I'd say that you just conquered your own prejudices.

I get uneasy when scruffy looking men are walking near behind me. Clearly I must be hobo-ist.

Never mind that I simply just recheck the situation, find that there is nothing of concern rationally, and control my fear as a man (Women aren't incapable of fear control either ).


Are you so anti-bigoted that you're conflating irrational fears with well thought out hatred? There ain't a boogey man in everything.

[orogenicman]

Poor argument and doesn't invalidate anything Adrian said. Emotions are inherently irrational. And no, if you said that black people made you feel uneasy, or gay people, or anything else, but then admitted that it is just a fear - I'd say that you just conquered your own prejudices.

I get uneasy when scruffy looking men are walking near behind me. Clearly I must be hobo-ist.

Never mind that I simply just recheck the situation, find that there is nothing of concern rationally, and control my fear as a man (Women aren't incapable of fear control either ).


Are you so anti-bigoted that you're conflating irrational fears with well thought out hatred? There ain't a boogey man in everything.

Admitting that it is "just" fear is just the first step in conquering prejudice. And a very small step at that. You don't truly conquer your prejudices until you stop living in fear, until fear just isn't a factor in how you behave towards others. How do you expect to resolve the issue of prejudice against atheists, if you can't conquer your own against others? This is why I have a problem with some of the language used here in discussions of people of faith. Yes, I have problems with many of them. And so I admit to some prejudice in this regard. But I also understand that the only route to understanding is through empathy. And so I agree that there "ain't a boogey man in everything", which I believe was my original point.

[A Theist]

This is twice I had to tell you to go back and read my post. I was making reference to the government throwing money away. My original quote...

And this is twice I've pointed out that your reference to the government throwing away money (i.e., the stimulus) is irrelevant to my question. So, dude, you didn'ty actually answer my question. You simply changed the subject.

...the point being, there's double standard hypocrisy at NPR. It was okay for Nina Totenberg to wish aids on Jesse Helms and his grandchildren, but not okay for Juan Williams to say he got nervous when he saw Muslims in muslim garb on airplanes. After what happened on 9-11, Williams was only stating what a lot of Americans feel. Some journalistic ethics at NPR.

You can't complain about double standards at NPR and then in the same sentence justify the double standards that many Americans have with regard to their bigotry towards all Muslims. That in itself is a double standard. What Juan Williams said was bigoted, plain and simple. Should he have been fired for it? I don't think he should have, but that obviously is not the issue here.

And this is twice I've pointed out that your reference to the government throwing away money (i.e., the stimulus) is irrelevant to my question. So, dude, you didn'ty actually answer my question. You simply changed the subject.

First of all, dude, your question was irrelevant to my quote. I never said that NPR was throwing away grant money. You made that false insinuation through your question to create an argument you thought you could win. Below is our original exchange with your question...

My Quote:...
"That's the problem. To begin with, the money provided for those government grants are not coming out of the Washington lawmakers pockets. That money is coming out of the taxpayers pockets. To throw our money away like that without some responsible oversight as to how it's spent is one reason why our country is $1.5 trillion in debt, (I actually meant deficit).

I don't care how government grants work, the money is still coming out of the taxpayers pockets, (Washington finds it pretty easy to throw other peoples money around). NPR has a history of intolerance toward opposing viewpoints and open debates. Why should my money fund that kind of forum? NPR should be cut off from the taxpayers dole."

Your Response:...
"What evidence do you have that grant money is being "throw(n) away" by NPR? I seriously doubt that they can afford to "throw" any money away"...

I still say that federal grant money to public broadcasting is government waste of taxpayers money. What real service does public broadcasting actually provide that justifies taxpayers support?

[Autumnlicious]

Admitting that it is "just" fear is just the first step in conquering prejudice. And a very small step at that. You don't truly conquer your prejudices until you stop living in fear, until fear just isn't a factor in how you behave towards others.

I just said that I take that fear and control it. Make it powerless. How can that be anything but not living in fear, asshole? Just because I get momentary urges and control them suddenly makes me a bad guy?

Well fuck you, you ain't no saint yourself.

How do you expect to resolve the issue of prejudice against atheists, if you can't conquer your own against others? This is why I have a problem with some of the language used here in discussions of people of faith. Yes, I have problems with many of them. And so I admit to some prejudice in this regard. But I also understand that the only route to understanding is through empathy. And so I agree that there "ain't a boogey man in everything", which I believe was my original point.

Blah blah something everyone fucking knows about and said nothing against it of the kind. The only thing you can't seem to grasp is that having a fear is human and controlling it, not it to you, is also part of being human.