What would you do if you found out God existed

[Captain_Nemo]

[Whateverist]

Establishing the likelihood of anything supernatural existing is not easy. It is you who are easy, easily convinced and eager to be convinced. That isn't what we had in mind.

[Pat Mustard]

Just on the tumor miracle - the doctors said her recovery was nothing abnormal and followed the expected response to treatment that they'd done before - not a single one of the medical staff responded to the Vatican's call for someone to support it as a miracle.  That's just the most blatant one that comes to my mind, I'm sure other people are more informed on other miracles.

It's interesting to note that the rcc effectively abandoned the idea of using the devil's advocate (they had earlier abolished the position as a permanent scrutineer of beatification "miracles") in any case. The fact that he was so eloquently able to destroy the church's favourite goto "miracle" when it wanted to make a saint and render it unusable so much so that karol wojtyla's canonisation miracle consisted of "some nun" living "somewhere in southern Italy" was cured of "some disease" after praying to the former pope.

[Captain_Nemo]

Establishing the likelihood of anything supernatural existing is not easy.  It is you who are easy, easily convinced and eager to be convinced.  That isn't what we had in mind.

The definition of natural is nowhere clearly stated. I assumed that supernatural is to be understood as it is being projected onto society by mass media.

It's rather obvious that such a topic should be tackled from the perspective of communication theory, but this would mean exertion from my side.

The question is not wheather the supernatural exists. The question is if it is possible to have control over information distribution, if yes to what extend. Then comes cybernetics and perception management. Rice experiment is easier

[Pat Mustard]

[possibletarian]

To clarify though, I don't believe God "causes" any of those things you mentioned, Possi. They are caused by human beings using their free will to hurt others, or they are caused by nature. God allows those things to happen by not divinely intervening in our world or in our actions to stop them, but He doesn't cause them.

Hi there CL
I believe you when you say you don't believe that god causes these things, of course you don't no rational person would. My argument was more based on the free will argument, free will does not preclude a sovereign god interfering, avoiding or stopping some circumstances, especially ones that lead to suffering. For instance if a parents see the children fighting, and they pick up weapons to use on one another then you and I would of course intervene, we would no longer think that the individuals right and freedom of expression was more important than stopping injury.

It's at this point that the theist interject arguments along the line of 'his ways are not our ways' or 'it's all part of the big picture' or it's all about free will' which at least to me is nonsense, otherwise why have a justice system at all? The bible, theists say is god's revealed word and it contains many laws that interfere with what we call free will from the very sensible rule not to murder, to the absurd rule about not rubbing sticks together on a Sabbath.
When you bring a child up 'in the way he should go' or the secular equivalent to teach a kid to be good you are also indoctrinating a child and interfering with free will.

Of course if someone decides to do something evil, then that's down to them, but which one of us would not love for that to be stopped by law enforcement of some kind, or at least arrested after the event? For a god who can see all these things and still does not interfere is about as good as no god at all, why instil a sense of justice in his word (in the Christian case the bible) while at the same time acting as if he does not exist in these matters.

As for natural disasters, that's a perfect case in point, god could simply stop those without interfering with anyone's free will.

Regards
possibletarian

[Pat Mustard]

Name one. Give us just one documented proven case of a miracle.

I already gave one miracle I believe in. And I never said anything about it being "proven". The supernatural can't be proven.

So you have exactly zero miracles you can point to. You have no evidence.

Colour me unsurprised.

[Whateverist]

Establishing the likelihood of anything supernatural existing is not easy.  It is you who are easy, easily convinced and eager to be convinced.  That isn't what we had in mind.

The definition of natural is nowhere clearly stated. I assumed that supernatural is to be understood as it is being projected onto society by mass media.

It's rather obvious that such a topic should be tackled from the perspective of communication theory, but this would mean exertion from my side.

The question is not wheather the supernatural exists. The question is if it is possible to have control over information distribution, if yes to what extend. Then comes cybernetics and perception management. Rice experiment is easier

What I can't figure out is whether you actually think you've said anything or if you're just blowing smoke up my ass.  If you want better treatment, try saying something you actually think is true in a way that has a chance of communicating.

[FatAndFaithless]

I already gave one miracle I believe in. And I never said anything about it being "proven". The supernatural can't be proven.

So you have exactly zero miracles you can point to. You have no evidence.

Colour me unsurprised.

CL has made it pretty clear that she doesn't take her beliefs as absolute certainty and has acknowledged the problems that other folks (including me) have with the evidence given for things like miracles (see our conversation in the last couple pages).  That doesn't mean the conversation isn't worth having, and looking at any miracle claim and the evidence for/against it is usually productive and interesting for both parties...providing they're as reasonable as CL.  Don't try that shit with Drich or Rik.

[Catholic_Lady]

I already gave one miracle I believe in. And I never said anything about it being "proven". The supernatural can't be proven.

So you have exactly zero miracles you can point to. You have no evidence.

Colour me unsurprised.

Lol ok big boy