Was Jesus' sacrifice really a sacrifice at all?

[Captain Scarlet]

Well if something undesirable was about to happen and you could neither prevent it nor did you know about it, you are of course blameless. But if you did know it would happen and were able to help prevent it, you may carry some responsibility for allowing it to happen.

God allowed it because he was going to use it to bring about a greater good.

Whilst that is logically consistent with evil, freewill and an all good god, it fails if it can be demonstrated that god could have bought about a better outcome. But according to the scriptures of your religion, the god character is capable of realising possible worlds were there is no suffering and people have freely come to beleive and worship him. Heaven and Eden to name 2 examples. Therefore god can realise a better outcome, does not have to allow the greater good to emerge through suffering and thus that argument fails.

You are absolutely wrong, in Eden there was suffering, when Adam and Eve disobeyed God He found them hiding from Him. When Lucifer tried to over throw God and take His throne there was suffering, God threw Lucifer and 1/3rd of the angels out of Heaven. So according to scriptures from creation till this very day there has been no perfect place, and only one perfect Life outside of heaven. So Theophilus has made a true statment, because as of today no perfect place has existed since creation.

Quite right Min it is a fairytale but bear with it.

Before Eve ate an apple was there suffering in Eden? If not god HAD realised a possible world without suffering. As he had done with Heaven. You are wrong and so is Theo.

[Godscreated]

Well if something undesirable was about to happen and you could neither prevent it nor did you know about it, you are of course blameless. But if you did know it would happen and were able to help prevent it, you may carry some responsibility for allowing it to happen.

God allowed it because he was going to use it to bring about a greater good.

Whilst that is logically consistent with evil, freewill and an all good god, it fails if it can be demonstrated that god could have bought about a better outcome. But according to the scriptures of your religion, the god character is capable of realising possible worlds were there is no suffering and people have freely come to beleive and worship him. Heaven and Eden to name 2 examples. Therefore god can realise a better outcome, does not have to allow the greater good to emerge through suffering and thus that argument fails.

You are absolutely wrong, in Eden there was suffering, when Adam and Eve disobeyed God He found them hiding from Him. When Lucifer tried to over throw God and take His throne there was suffering, God threw Lucifer and 1/3rd of the angels out of Heaven. So according to scriptures from creation till this very day there has been no perfect place, and only one perfect Life outside of heaven. So Theophilus has made a true statment, because as of today no perfect place has existed since creation.

Quite right Min it is a fairytale but bear with it.

Before Eve ate an apple was there suffering in Eden? If not god HAD realised a possible world without suffering. As he had done with Heaven. You are wrong and so is Theo.

God saw the fall of Lucifer and Adam before they ever did.

[Minimalist]

Nice...using one fairy tale to prop up another.

What's next? Hansel und Gretel?

[Lethe]

Jesus was trolling the Roman Empire, he sacrificed his life for the Greater Lulz, and his followers ate it up like his zombie flesh.

That I could believe. There's also the crazed lunatic option, and the non-existent option.

[Captain Scarlet]

God saw the fall of Lucifer and Adam before they ever did.

What has foresight got to do with realising a possible material world without suffering? He may of known at a point in time it would turn to shit after he realised paradise, but it still meant HE COULD AND DID realise it. Hence he can do it and suffering is not compatiable with the greater good and an all good being. The best you can argue to is that the being that did this was capricious at best or evil at worst.

Early christians recognised this and the marcianites tried to develop a new theology based purely on Jesus' teachings effectively saying the OT was the work of a lesser god. They maybe had a point, becuase you now have to twist and turn and airbrush out the bad bits and capitalise the good bits.

[Godscreated]

God saw the fall of Lucifer and Adam before they ever did.

What has foresight got to do with realising a possible material world without suffering? He may of known at a point in time it would turn to shit after he realised paradise, but it still meant HE COULD AND DID realise it. Hence he can do it and suffering is not compatiable with the greater good and an all good being. The best you can argue to is that the being that did this was capricious at best or evil at worst.

Early christians recognised this and the marcianites tried to develop a new theology based purely on Jesus' teachings effectively saying the OT was the work of a lesser god. They maybe had a point, becuase you now have to twist and turn and airbrush out the bad bits and capitalise the good bits.

Certainly He has realised a perfect place, if He had not we would not know about the new world He will make for us. This new world does not yet exist because God is not finished with the old one. So as of today there is no perfect place for mankind. Jesus told His disciples that He was going to prepare a place for them and all believers and when He is finished He will return to take us to a new and perfect place.

[Captain Scarlet]

Certainly He has realised a perfect place, if He had not we would not know about the new world He will make for us. This new world does not yet exist because God is not finished with the old one. So as of today there is no perfect place for mankind. Jesus told His disciples that He was going to prepare a place for them and all believers and when He is finished He will return to take us to a new and perfect place.

Progress of sorts GC, at least you have conceeded the point after denying it originally. As for the rest of it... the Jesus character was alleged to say lots of stuff, including that he'd return in the lifetimes of his disciples. Guess you christians are failing to celebrate Easter well enough, 2000 years later...apparently still waiting.