But how good are we really??

[Catholic_Lady]

I think some of you are being a bit hard on her.  They are legitimate wonderings.  Asking questions is a very healthy thing.  

What is interesting to me is that this line of reasoning in the OP is what eventually lead me to realize that free-will isn't real.  We don't chose to be good or bad.  We just are what we are.  And good and bad are both totally subjective, depending on who's POV you are looking from.

To answer the OP, I didn't answer your poll, even though I read it, for some of the reasons you are wondering.  I try and be the best I can, but I am not comfortable labeling myself as a "good" person. I am a fortunate, lucky person.  That's the best way I can think of to describe myself.

Good questions, CL.  I hope it spurs more good conversations.

Got to say that I just can't be bothered to dwell on morality.  I'd rather live an interesting or a beautiful life than I would a morally exemplary life.  That said, when a moral choice arises it can be motivating.  But I can't be arsed to go around looking for causes to throw myself behind.  I'd rather have a life.  Somebody should give that a try.

That's an interesting way of looking at it. I guess I've always seen it the other way around... that morality plays a huge role in living a "beautiful life."

As einstein put it: "The most important human endeavor is the striving for morality in our actions. Our inner balance and even our very existence depend on it. Only morality in our actions can give beauty and dignity to life."

[Whateverist]

Got to say that I just can't be bothered to dwell on morality.  I'd rather live an interesting or a beautiful life than I would a morally exemplary life.  That said, when a moral choice arises it can be motivating.  But I can't be arsed to go around looking for causes to throw myself behind.  I'd rather have a life.  Somebody should give that a try.

That's an interesting way of looking at it. I guess I've always seen in the other way around... that morality plays a huge role in living a "beautiful life."

As einstein put it: "The most important human endeavor is the striving for morality in our actions. Our inner balance and even our very existence depend on it. Only morality in our actions can give beauty and dignity to life."

I basically agree but I think it can only do that when the morality arises in the right way.  It can't be a self conscious preoccupation with moral exceptionalism.  Kindness should come from an authentic place, not a sense of duty or the desire to please a judge.  You've got to trust yourself to do the right thing in the process of being yourself.

[Rev. Rye]

Well, that wound up being close to my assessment. I came of age in an era where school shootings were becoming more and more common and people were afraid of misfits who could potentially kill them. And then they decided the best thing to do is isolate them further, in addition to the standard "kill yourself" or "suck my dick", there was a strong tendency to claim I was ready to shoot the school up. Didn't convince them to go to let up. Eventually, by the time I graduated, I wound up being convinced I was just a ticking time bomb ready to blow at the slightest excuse.

To cope with the straggling bullies (nonexistent by Senior year), I wound up using what Nixon called the "Complete Madman" theory to scare them away, heavily implying that I could potentially do things rarely seen outside of the most outlandish serial killer movies to those who crossed me. (It work, although I suppose the fact that some people actually respected my intellect as well helped; carrot and stick in action.) By my senior year of High school, I wound up saying "Thank God for the rain to wash the trash off the sidewalk," every time class ended. I took until I was well into my twenties to actually take driver's ed because I was convinced I could potentially... well, you've heard of what happened in Nice and Charlottesville, right? Sometimes, they'd play "Iron Man" on the speakers during lunch, and I'd sing the lyrics in the first person. "Have I lost my mind? Can I see or am I blind? Can I walk at all Or if I moves will he fall?" up to and including the vengeance verses. And yet, online, I wound up actually being a lot more courteous than in real life, unlike the vast majority of cases.

At Columbia, I had a teacher who hated me, and I wound up hating her. I wound up applying the Complete Madman theory to her. I was briefly suspended and I wound up starting therapy. I told my therapist about my fears, and she asked me one question: did I ever act on those fears? No, I said. I never initiated the complete madman theory with people who weren't antagonising me (well, except for giving it a Sacha Baron Cohen twist with a teacher who turned out to be an ephebophile, not that I knew at the time). The closest I ever came to physical violence included a fight that happened after I bumped into another student while in a funk that the Best Buy gift card I won turned out to only be for $10 (stopped before it came to blows), and lifting up a chair during lunch.

And with all this in mind, I found myself thinking, was I really a ticking time bomb? Was I really a good person? Huh. Evidently, I was. Evidently, that teacher who read one of my stories and noted I was obsessed with Svidrigailov-type characters but was ultimately not one myself was onto something.

[energizer bunny]

I think some of you are being a bit hard on her.  They are legitimate wonderings.  Asking questions is a very healthy thing.  

What is interesting to me is that this line of reasoning in the OP is what eventually lead me to realize that free-will isn't real.  We don't chose to be good or bad.  We just are what we are.  And good and bad are both totally subjective, depending on who's POV you are looking from.

To answer the OP, I didn't answer your poll, even though I read it, for some of the reasons you are wondering.  I try and be the best I can, but I am not comfortable labeling myself as a "good" person. I am a fortunate, lucky person.  That's the best way I can think of to describe myself.

Good questions, CL.  I hope it spurs more good conversations.

Got to say that I just can't be bothered to dwell on morality.  I'd rather live an interesting or a beautiful life than I would a morally exemplary life.  That said, when a moral choice arises it can be motivating.  But I can't be arsed to go around looking for causes to throw myself behind.  I'd rather have a life.  Somebody should give that a try.

Yep. I feel like if you already live an interesting life combined with a healthy self esteem, naturally there is no need to dwell on right or wrong. It would feel silly of me to do so. And even sillier if i were to start dwelling on if others thought of me as good or bad. Why should i care? Even if someone is acting like a jerk to me, there is little to no desire or fantasy to get even. Why allow someone to ruin my happiness? The story i told a month ago, about my supervisor getting upset then sending me home and my reaction to it is an example of this.

[Catholic_Lady]

This wasn't meant to have anything to do with religion one way or the other. It was more supposed to be a self reflection type thing.

[energizer bunny]

This wasn't meant to have anything to do with religion one way or the other. It was more supposed to be a self reflection type thing.

Not sure if this was addressed to me, but i'm not talking about religion.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I've fallen short of my moral standards often enough to be very cautious of claiming goodness on my own behalf. I'm content to do the best I can and let others judge me on that basis.

I have at times fallen so short of my moral standards that it might appear that I have none.  Maybe I didn't.  I would hope that rather than be judged by those shortcomings, that I might instead be recognized for seeing my own failings and making an earnest effort to correct them.

I  believe contrition is worth something.

Sure. I wasn't saying I don't think about my own actions and seek to improve the congruence between my actions and my ideals. I just think that as much as I try to be objective about myself, it's very difficult, and so me telling anyone I'm a good person is likely self-serving.

---

I think that we do a disservice, to our compatriots, in never discussing it.

I'll discuss it, sure. I doubt that the depth of my feelings about it approaches the depth of your feelings, by dint of the fact that I was a couple of steps removed from the suffering I helped inflict. For that reason, I doubt any discussion I could offer would be helpful to you guys who were front and center.

When I do get into those conversations, I listen more than I talk. I suspect that's a good thing, too.

Right or wrong we did this for them.

Often enough, gratitude is in short supply.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I have killed a shit load of people, mostly those were trying to kill me, or would have tried if I'd have given them the least chance. But if you ask the people who know me IRL they'd say I was  a good person. They say it often enough to me.

I get the same.  People thank me for what I've done without asking what I did...and if i ever tell them...they come up with reasons -for- me.  I don't know about you, but the strangest thing for me is realizing that by most other peoples standards (at least the people in my social circle) I'm a boy scout, a walking saint.  The kid nextdoor.  I watch them agonize over their own moral status while giving me a pass to do..it seems..pretty much anything.

I don't think I'll ever forgive myself (but at the same time ther's a part of me that doesn't give a single fuck)....but every year, I get a holiday and a bunch of flag waiving and people say horrible shit that they probably think I agree with about what I did, about who I am and who I'll always be...and on the inside I;m positively dying but I don't have the heart to take it from them.

I've learned to surf over that shit. Just "woulda, coulda, shoulda, don't matter now." It helps me.

[Mr.Obvious]

I don't think I'm a 'good' person. Not really.
I don't know many people who are. To be utterly honest.

Not because I don't have desire to do harm. Nor because I do and don't do it.
Mankind's greatest sins don't flow from wrath. Wrath is the least of the seven that plague us and when it rises on worldwide level, it is often facilitated by a world created by envy, gluttony, pride and perhaps even lust. And all of these shape the world because of our underlying self-centered dispassion for the rest of the world: Greed and Sloth.

I don't steal. I don't rape. I don't murder. I don't ...

Whoopty-f'ing-doo

My entire lifestyle is a poison to most of the world. Most of ours on here is too. I know it. And yet, I do nothing.

That's the basic line.

I don't...

I do nothing.

[Whateverist]

This wasn't meant to have anything to do with religion one way or the other. It was more supposed to be a self reflection type thing.

I have to admit I was and have thought about the way religion warps morality.  To think you will be judged by Someone who watches over your every act seemingly must affect you.  Some of the religious people here (but not yourself) seem to think this situation improves morality, that it can motivate the reluctant.  But as Rev. Rye illustrated it can also confuse your sense of self, essentially alienating you rather than grounding you.  

It isn't that I negatively judge religious people for dwelling on pleasing while fearing to displease their tireless observer.  Really I feel sorry for those who find themselves in that trap.  Think of MysticKnight and how much he suffers because of this.  But to the degree that charity and kindness are motivated by the desire to please the judge rather than the needy it does throw things off in a way that bothers me.