But how good are we really??

[Thumpalumpacus]

I've fallen short of my moral standards often enough to be very cautious of claiming goodness on my own behalf. I'm content to do the best I can and let others judge me on that basis.

[Catholic_Lady]

Really? That's pretty good. I find that when I want to do something and have the opportunity to do it, I most likely will, even if i think it is immoral.

That surprises me.

Personally, if I acted on some of the urges I've had over the years I'd likely be doing life in prison.

Lol interesting.

No, I've never had urges that would put me in jail. Just more day to day things, like, yelling when I'm angry, doing something selfish, etc.

[Whateverist]

I think some of you are being a bit hard on her.  They are legitimate wonderings.  Asking questions is a very healthy thing.  

What is interesting to me is that this line of reasoning in the OP is what eventually lead me to realize that free-will isn't real.  We don't chose to be good or bad.  We just are what we are.  And good and bad are both totally subjective, depending on who's POV you are looking from.

To answer the OP, I didn't answer your poll, even though I read it, for some of the reasons you are wondering.  I try and be the best I can, but I am not comfortable labeling myself as a "good" person. I am a fortunate, lucky person.  That's the best way I can think of to describe myself.

Good questions, CL.  I hope it spurs more good conversations.

Got to say that I just can't be bothered to dwell on morality.  I'd rather live an interesting or a beautiful life than I would a morally exemplary life.  That said, when a moral choice arises it can be motivating.  But I can't be arsed to go around looking for causes to throw myself behind.  I'd rather have a life.  Somebody should give that a try.

[Edwardo Piet]

The thing is, most of us don't rape, murder, steal, cheat on our spouse, etc (whatever it is that might make us "bad people")... simply because we neither have the desire to nor the opportunity to. Especially with rape and kill. We can pat ourselves on the back for never having done anything like that, but really it's just pure luck that we weren't born with the genetic desire for those things, and/or raised in such a way or culture that might lead us to it. Its pure luck that I don't have the genetic predisposition to want to have sex with multiple men and so I stay loyal to mine.

I agree 100%

And IMO, 100% of life is pure luck ultimately.

[LadyForCamus]

I have killed a shit load of people, mostly those were trying to kill me, or would have tried if I'd have given them the least chance. But if you ask the people who know me IRL they'd say I was  a good person. They say it often enough to me.

I get the same.  People thank me for what I've done without asking what I did...and if i ever tell them...they come up with reasons -for- me.  I don't know about you, but the strangest thing for me is realizing that by most other peoples standards (at least the people in my social circle) I'm a boy scout, a walking saint.  The kid nextdoor.  I watch them agonize over their own moral status while giving me a pass to do..it seems..pretty much anything.

I don't think I'll ever forgive myself (but at the same time ther's a part of me that doesn't give a single fuck)....but every year, I get a holiday and a bunch of flag waiving and people say horrible shit that they probably think I agree with about what I did, about who I am and who I'll always be...and on the inside I;m positively dying but I don't have the heart to take it from them.

Active duty, Khem?

---

I started a poll thread yesterday asking people if they thought of themselves as good. I answered the poll myself (yes) and also stated that I think most people/the average person are generally good.

I do feel that way. But nonetheless there is something that has always bothered me about that sentiment.

The thing is, most of us don't rape, murder, steal, cheat on our spouse, etc (whatever it is that might make us "bad people")... simply because we neither have the desire to nor the opportunity to. Especially with rape and kill. We can pat ourselves on the back for never having done anything like that, but really it's just pure luck that we weren't born with the genetic desire for those things, and/or raised in such a way or culture that might lead us to it. Its pure luck that I don't have the genetic predisposition to want to have sex with multiple men and so I stay loyal to mine. But if we wanted to do something really bad and we had the opportunity to, would we do it?

Does it really speak to our character when we've never done anything really bad simply because we've never had the desire/opportunity to do it? When was the last time we resisted doing something (even something really small) that we wanted to do and could do, but didnt simply because we thought it was wrong? And if we always do the wrong thing every single time we want to and have the opportunity to despite knowing its wrong, are we really that different from the person who rapes every time he feels like it and can? If so, the only difference between him and us is desire and opportunity.

Maybe saying "im a good person because ive never killed, raped, stolen, cheated, abused anyone, etc," when the desire/opportunity to do those things was never there to begin with, isnt a good measurement of character. Maybe character should be measured by the times we wanted to do something we knew in our hearts is immoral, had the opportunity to do it, but chose not to simply for the sake of doing the right thing. Unfortunately, off the top of my head, I can think of a handful of times I've resisted immorality, but not overwhelmingly. Maybe none of us are really as good as we think we are.

As Dumbledore said, "There comes a time in life when we must choose between what is easy and what is right." When that happens, how many times do we take the easy road?

Thoughts?

Dumbledore always knew just what to say...  *sniff*

[vorlon13]

That surprises me.

Personally, if I acted on some of the urges I've had over the years I'd likely be doing life in prison.

Lol interesting.

No, I've never had urges that would put me in jail. Just more day to day things, like, yelling when I'm angry, doing something selfish, etc.

Well, I will gently chide you that some of your astonishing heresies here might have earned you:

[The Valkyrie]

That surprises me.

Personally, if I acted on some of the urges I've had over the years I'd likely be doing life in prison.

Lol interesting.

No, I've never had urges that would put me in jail. Just more day to day things, like, yelling when I'm angry, doing something selfish, etc.

Well, as I've mentioned before, and you have likely noticed, I have a very dark sense of humour.

It comes partially as a defence mechanism to some of the things I have seen and worked on, but I do have what I call my dark side.  I HAVE wondered if I could get away with pushing the obnoxious guy in front of a train while standing on a platform, and things like that.

It's probably a very good thing that I have a tight rein on that side of me.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I have killed a shit load of people, mostly those were trying to kill me, or would have tried if I'd have given them the least chance. But if you ask the people who know me IRL they'd say I was  a good person. They say it often enough to me.

I get the same.  People thank me for what I've done without asking what I did...and if i ever tell them...they come up with reasons -for- me.  I don't know about you, but the strangest thing for me is realizing that by most other peoples standards (at least the people in my social circle) I'm a boy scout, a walking saint.  The kid nextdoor.  I watch them agonize over their own moral status while giving me a pass to do..it seems..pretty much anything.

I don't think I'll ever forgive myself (but at the same time ther's a part of me that doesn't give a single fuck)....but every year, I get a holiday and a bunch of flag waiving and people say horrible shit that they probably think I agree with about what I did, about who I am and who I'll always be...and on the inside I;m positively dying but I don't have the heart to take it from them.

I don't often talk about the guilt I feel in supporting, materially, the dropping of bombs on other human beings. I have my own rationalizations, and prefer others not examine them too closely.

[The Grand Nudger]

I think that we do a disservice, to our compatriots, in never discussing it.

---

I've fallen short of my moral standards often enough to be very cautious of claiming goodness on my own behalf. I'm content to do the best I can and let others judge me on that basis.

Maybe they'll call us villains.  Fuck them.  Right or wrong we did this for them.

[Jackalope]

I've fallen short of my moral standards often enough to be very cautious of claiming goodness on my own behalf. I'm content to do the best I can and let others judge me on that basis.

I have at times fallen so short of my moral standards that it might appear that I have none. Maybe I didn't. I would hope that rather than be judged by those shortcomings, that I might instead be recognized for seeing my own failings and making an earnest effort to correct them.

I believe contrition is worth something.