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Belief
November 1, 2010 at 11:42 am
The thread about defining atheism brought this on. It seems that atheists, by and large, have an aversion to using the word 'believe' when discussing anything relating to religion. It's probably a reaction to all the accusations that atheism is a 'belief system' and 'requires faith', and 'atheism is a religion'.
If you do not believe that god(s) exist – You are an atheist.
If you believe that god(s) do not exist – You are an atheist.
If you believe that god(s) exist – You are a theist (or a deist).
Those are the only stances available concerning the existence of god(s) as it relates to the word 'believe'. I do not include 'undecided' as a realistic stance. You can claim one of those three things, even if just barely and coupled with serious doubts. Failure/refusal to choose is simple 'apatheism', which is fine, but does not deal with the issue of belief... so it is not included, either.
I personally lack belief in the existence of god(s). I have never encountered nor been presented with a compelling reason to believe any claims that god(s) exist are true, let alone convincing evidence to support those claims. This make me an atheist.
I am willing to take it a step further, however, and state that I believe that no god(s) exist.
I know that some of you find that to be an irrational claim, but I disagree. I do not claim to have objective knowledge that no god(s) exist. I'm enlightened enough to be aware that I do not/cannot know for certain. This makes me agnostic.
Belief does not require objective knowledge. My lack of belief has lead me to learn all that I can about religion in general and the matter of god(s) existence. I have heard all the arguments, both for and against... more times over than I can count... and I am convinced. I believe that there are no god(s).
How about you?
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RE: Belief
November 1, 2010 at 12:35 pm
I chose I do not believe that a God exists. I am an agnostic atheist.
"God is dead" - Friedrich Nietzsche
"Faith is what you have in things that DON'T exist. - Homer J. Simpson
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RE: Belief
November 1, 2010 at 1:38 pm
As Paul pointed out, it is possible to be an agnostic atheist and still have an active belief that God does not exist (or that there are no Gods, whichever way you phrase it). Agnosticism is related to knowledge alone, and the position of believing there are no Gods doesn't touch upon knowledge.
Such a position is usually called "strong" atheism, and the position of "not believing in any Gods" is "weak" atheism. It is possible to be a "strong agnostic atheist" and a "weak agnostic atheist"; the word "agnostic" allows for both. However, if you are a "gnostic atheist" (claims to know that there are no Gods), you cannot possibly be "weak", since your claim to knowledge infers a strong belief rather than a lack of belief. That is, it is impossible to know something and yet simply lack a belief in the opposite of the claim. Knowledge is a form of strong belief.
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RE: Belief
November 2, 2010 at 2:50 am
(This post was last modified: November 3, 2010 at 7:24 am by Violet.)
I know there are no gods. I may be wrong, but I am acceptant of my faith that there are no gods.
A stance/belief is not (necessarily) permanent, and shown sufficient reason to believe there are gods, I might change my mind. I still accept the possibility of a god's existence.
People can know anything... be it right or wrong, silly or smart. Knowledge doesn't entitle us to truth.
Edit: I should note... I would select the third option (I believe that god(s) exist.), but I am operating on the colloquial understanding of 'existence', and believe the physical existence of the being to be implied.
Please give me a home where cloud buffalo roam
Where the dear and the strangers can play
Where sometimes is heard a discouraging word
But the skies are not stormy all day
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RE: Belief
November 2, 2010 at 7:29 am
(This post was last modified: November 2, 2010 at 7:29 am by ib.me.ub.)
I believe that ...(s) do not exist, outside of the mind.
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RE: Belief
November 2, 2010 at 7:49 am
What about us who say God does not exist as opposed to I believe that god(s) do not exist?
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RE: Belief
November 2, 2010 at 9:21 pm
Option 2: I believe that god(s) do not exist.
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RE: Belief
November 3, 2010 at 7:17 am
Quote:it is impossible to know something and yet simply lack a belief in the opposite of the claim. Knowledge is a form of strong belief.
While that may technically be true, it is also true that knowledge of something real does not require faith that it is real. For instance, I know that if I drop a ball, it will, due to the action of gravity, fall to the ground. This is knowledge based not only on the laws of physics but on real-time life experience that can be readily demonstrated and repeated. It doesn't require faith. That said, whether or not it actually strikes the ground is subject to some discussion, since the laws of physics also tells us that the concept of durability and solidity is by and large a myth of our senses, or perhaps, merely a property of the atomic forces, since matter mostly consists of empty space.
'The difference between a Miracle and a Fact is exactly the difference between a mermaid and seal. It could not be expressed better.'
-- Samuel "Mark Twain" Clemens
"I think that in the discussion of natural problems we ought to begin not with the scriptures, but with experiments, demonstrations, and observations".
- Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
"In short, Meyer has shown that his first disastrous book was not a fluke: he is capable of going into any field in which he has no training or research experience and botching it just as badly as he did molecular biology. As I've written before, if you are a complete amateur and don't understand a subject, don't demonstrate the Dunning-Kruger effect by writing a book about it and proving your ignorance to everyone else! "
- Dr. Donald Prothero
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RE: Belief
November 3, 2010 at 3:49 pm
Knowledge of the existence of God or anything else appears to me to be such an unimportant concept it is hardly worth mentioning. I would not even say that belief about the existence or not of God is a particularly important concept either.
I would say that the position that god does not exist seems to me to be worthy of greater prioritisation as a basis for thought and debate about politics, philosophy, personal relationships, and other areas of life than the position of uncertainty (for want of a better description) or the position that God does exist.
By prioritisation I mean I tend to spend more of my time thinking about these areas on the basis of the assumption that god does not exist than on the basis of the assumption that he does exist or the lack of knowledge or belief about him. But thought operates on different levels, we all have different mind states at different times. To be consistent in one's position is not an attainable goal as far as I can see.
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RE: Belief
November 3, 2010 at 5:02 pm
(November 3, 2010 at 3:49 pm)Existentialist Wrote: Knowledge of the existence of God or anything else appears to me to be such an unimportant concept it is hardly worth mentioning. I would not even say that belief about the existence or not of God is a particularly important concept either.
To say it's unimportant is just to further demonstrate your apparent naivety as the belief has clear and obvious impact on the behaviour of certain individuals in society. Those who claim knowledge of religious requirements are more likely to behave in ways consistent with that belief, as opposed to those tho are agnostic in belief, you would not for instance see an agnostic theist killing doctors at abortion clinics, or flying planes into buildings as neither have the same epistemic foundations for their beliefs.
Quote:I would say that the position that god does not exist seems to me to be worthy of greater prioritisation as a basis for thought and debate about politics, philosophy, personal relationships, and other areas of life than the position of uncertainty (for want of a better description) or the position that God does exist.
And if all you're interested in is kicking up a debate then go ahead, but holding the epistemically unjustified belief that 'gods do not exist' is not something that is compatible with seeking intellectual honesty first and debate second.
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