How to answer "I know that I know that I know"?

[Aoi Magi]

1) God is so great, so amazing, so holy, that all the pain in the world (babies dying of cancer, entire civilizations wiped out by Israel, tsunamis killing thousands of people) is so minuscule in comparison to what he SHOULD be doing to us for being sinful, that my friend does not regard it as immoral/wrong/bad. He believes that god should actually just wipe us from the universe...BUT, god is being gracious, and only allowing some small pain.

If there is preventable suffering which he can but won't prevent, then his is not the highest degree of goodness or perfection.

2) He agrees that the bible may not be perfect, and that it is not the inerrant Word of God...but, he believes that the bible is a good guide, as the bible (for him) correlates to what he sees in the world today.

If the bible is not the word of god, and your friend is not out stoning unruly children, then he is cherrypicking from the book using his own morality, and doesn't really need the book. 1984 and Orwell's other books seem to correlate with what we are seeing today too... though with a healthy dose of "interpretation".

3) Even though he agrees that he has NO EVIDENCE for god, he holds to the fact that he just knows that he knows that he knows god is real and is part of his daily life.

Ask him what precisely and observably difference would there be in his daily life, if there was no god.

[CapnAwesome]

If I were you I'd just leave them alone. I mean it seems that you are mad at them because they decided to be poor. Which is a really shitty reason to be mad at people. Actually it's the one part of the bible I rather like. To not participate in the capitalist system.

If they say God will provide for them, all the better. You don't have to give them anything you don't want to. I'd say let them do what they want to. At least they are actually doing what Jesus told people to, rather than most Christians, who are major hypocrites who don't read the bible except for the parts that fit in with the modern world.

P.S. do they know you are atheists?

[Whateverist]

Fact is, after our conversations, he has come up with three things that I cannot seem to find answers to. I'm convinced he is wrong, but I do not know how to answer:
1) God is so great, so amazing, so holy, that all the pain in the world (babies dying of cancer, entire civilizations wiped out by Israel, tsunamis killing thousands of people) is so minuscule in comparison to what he SHOULD be doing to us for being sinful, that my friend does not regard it as immoral/wrong/bad. He believes that god should actually just wipe us from the universe...BUT, god is being gracious, and only allowing some small pain.
2) He agrees that the bible may not be perfect, and that it is not the inerrant Word of God...but, he believes that the bible is a good guide, as the bible (for him) correlates to what he sees in the world today.
3) Even though he agrees that he has NO EVIDENCE for god, he holds to the fact that he just knows that he knows that he knows god is real and is part of his daily life.

I realize that if he does not want to be convinced, he may never be...BUT, I cannot simply (in good conscience), let him continue destroying his, his wife, and his son's lives with ridiculous "whim-like" decisions based on the faith that god will sort it all. I cannot stand idly by while this continues to happen to my best friend...and I honestly feel a very strong urge to chat with him more, and deconstruct his beliefs, at least to the point where he is able to make more reasonable and rational decisions.

Any advice on those three questions/answers?

1 - Since he provides no justification for why he believes this there is nothing to say.  Justifying a negative is always a tough row to hoe, and I don't feel like trying. 

2 - This again is all about what he likes and believes for god only knows what reason.  There is nothing to say.

3 - All about him.  I think he uses "knows" in the same bastardized way he is using "believe", it all goes back to what he wishes for his own idiosyncratic reasons.


But welcome to the forum.  Yours is an interesting story.  Dealing with your friend is part of what you have to extricate yourself from to fully liberate yourself from the religious madness you were born into.  Best of luck with that.

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Um........ do we have a POE and I got sucked in?

Well I do note that this is his one and only post.  Who knows?  Meh.

[notimportant1234]

The best way to help him is to study the bible and show him that he isn't living acording to Gods word. Before you all jump on me , the OP really is interested to help his friend , he may not be able to change his belief , but at least he can use his belief to make him change his way.

[shadow]

3) Even though he agrees that he has NO EVIDENCE for god, he holds to the fact that he just knows that he knows that he knows god is real and is part of his daily life.

Welcome to the forum! I think the problem is that he has invested too much in believing that there is a god, that were he to give that up he'd have to accept being a sucker and having thrown away his life for something fake. I've never had to do this, and I don't know how I would.

You said you were a pastor; how did you get beyond the highly convincing sunk cost of your entire career being a waste? Of misleading your family about religion? Of pouring your own money into something not real? Even when it's the right move, I think it takes extraordinary strength to accept that, which is a huge barrier towards moving away from religion for many people.

[The Grand Nudger]

1) God is so great, so amazing, so holy, that all the pain in the world (babies dying of cancer, entire civilizations wiped out by Israel, tsunamis killing thousands of people) is so minuscule in comparison to what he SHOULD be doing to us for being sinful, that my friend does not regard it as immoral/wrong/bad. He believes that god should actually just wipe us from the universe...BUT, god is being gracious, and only allowing some small pain.
2) He agrees that the bible may not be perfect, and that it is not the inerrant Word of God...but, he believes that the bible is a good guide, as the bible (for him) correlates to what he sees in the world today.
3) Even though he agrees that he has NO EVIDENCE for god, he holds to the fact that he just knows that he knows that he knows god is real and is part of his daily life.

So.., your friend believes that he holds a crystal ball which plainly describes how we're such lowly and fallen creatures that we deserve whatever's coming to us - and on the basis of this belief, he's content to flip a coin in his family life and wait for a ghost to sort it out?  

Good luck to you both.

[riaaneloff]

If I were you I'd just leave them alone. I mean it seems that you are mad at them because they decided to be poor. Which is a really shitty reason to be mad at people. Actually it's the one part of the bible I rather like. To not participate in the capitalist system.

If they say God will provide for them, all the better. You don't have to give them anything you don't want to. I'd say let them do what they want to. At least they are actually doing what Jesus told people to, rather than most Christians, who are major hypocrites who don't read the bible except for the parts that fit in with the modern world.

P.S. do they know you are atheists?

Hey there.  He knows, we've discussed this in quite some detail.  I'm not mad at them at all, for anything.  Not mad at them for being poor.  He's my friend, and I see him, his wife, and his son living out of boxes for ONE reason only:  he believes god told him to do ministry instead of the job (at which he is actually amazing!  He is one of the top 10 bassist in our country, and his wife an amazing vocalist.  They were inundated with work, and decided to stop taking gigs, only to minister because god told them).  It's tough to just leave someone alone, with whom you've spent 30 years as friends, and see them making an active choice to do irrational things.

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3) Even though he agrees that he has NO EVIDENCE for god, he holds to the fact that he just knows that he knows that he knows god is real and is part of his daily life.

Welcome to the forum! I think the problem is that he has invested too much in believing that there is a god, that were he to give that up he'd have to accept being a sucker and having thrown away his life for something fake. I've never had to do this, and I don't know how I would.

You said you were a pastor; how did you get beyond the highly convincing sunk cost of your entire career being a waste? Of misleading your family about religion? Of pouring your own money into something not real? Even when it's the right move, I think it takes extraordinary strength to accept that, which is a huge barrier towards moving away from religion for many people.

It's quite a long story, but, essentially, over many, many years, there have been questions in the back of my mind.  Ones that I thought I'd still find answers to, or God will still answer in time.  As life unfolded, some of these questions kept popping up, and at one point I challenged myself therein that I considered whether or not church as an organization was TRULY the way god intended.  As I started finding the facts, I started "daring" to question biblical "facts", and once the bible started crumbling, the logical next step was th questions about god himself that were still unanswered.  But, it is quite a long and winding road :-)  Also, not just my own decisions.   A combination of life events, circumstances etc etc that all piped in this direction.  If I were a believer, I would've said: "god was steering me here"  LOL  ;-)

[Angrboda]

The best way to help him is to study the bible and show him that he isn't living acording to Gods word. Before you all jump on me , the OP really is interested to help his friend , he may not be able to change his belief , but at least he can use his belief to make him change his way.

I agree with this. Your friend has a heavy bias in favor of his views about God. It will be nothing but a futile battle trying to attack his beliefs. Better to use his religious beliefs and the bible to encourage him that God would want him to live more responsibly. Doesn't the parable of the three servants say as much? I think fighting against his belief will simply encourage further pious behavior. Work with the grain, not against it.

[Mister Agenda]

Looking forward to seeing if the OP will return.

Edit: Never mind, there he is. I thought he was shaping up to be a 'post and run' but I was wrong. My apologies rianneloff.

[Brian37]

"I know that I know that I know that you don't know"

to the forums.

I am a Blondie fan too.