Evolution

[The Valkyrie]

My scrolling finger hurts.

Use a different finger for "scrolling".

[Aegon]

My scrolling finger hurts.

FOOL.

[Little Rik]

Is not impossible that some people make up stories.
Not just about NDEs but about everything.
In fact that happen all the time.
I have no idea who this guy is or anything about his experience so I am not in a position to judge but as I said everything is possible.

To have a good judgement about NDEs however you got to put together several factors.
1) Is the person real.
2) Did this person really die and was certified dead by a doctor?
3) Did this person came back to life and was certified alive by a doctor and possibly some witnesses certified his experience as true?
4) Did this NDE go hand in hand with the consciousness leaving the body and experience a dimension with God?
5) Does this person remember such an experience with clarity even after many years?
6) Has this person benefited from such an experience?
7) Has this person dump his-her previous dogmas about almost anything and become more and more spiritual oriented?

If the NDE follow these lines then the chances that his-her NDE is real is 99,9% positive.  

---

My scrolling finger hurts.

I got a great tip for you brother VL so you will not hurt your finger anymore.  

Scroll only the pages in which LR write and avoid scrolling the rest after all those later pages carry no meaning at all.
They are like a rosary of desperation chanting the same old and boring mantra.........DISMISS......DISMISS........DISMISS........AND MORE DISMISS.  
Dismiss of course everything that would destroy atheists dogmas.  

[Little Rik]

Not at all yog.
You are confusing    all this with the NDE welcome.
Read again what I did write.  

I did read what you wrote, both here and before.  But you apparently didn't read what I wrote.  I've asked you several times how one knows that the 'welcome' portion of an NDE is over.  You've yet to answer that question, until you do, the rest is irrelevant.

Idiot.
If you read properly her NDE it clearly stated that she come back into her body BECAUSE she still had feelings for her parents.
That is the fee will in action.

Moron.  The question at issue is how you know that Cathleen's account of a reality where there is reincarnation is more reliable than NDE accounts which contradict the idea of reincarnation.  Your first response was that people see things in their NDE that reflect their prior beliefs, rather than reality.  I pointed out that the same could be said about Cathleen, thus rendering her reincarnation NDE nothing more than a reflection of her prior belief rather than truth.  So you then claimed that free will made the difference but have been unable to explain how.  When asked about it, you give me crap like this which has nothing to do with the original question.  Pull your head out of your ass and answer the question.  I'll repeat it below in case you've forgotten.

Ignoring for the moment that this is a rationalization about NDEs rather than actual evidence from NDEs, this doesn't actually help you.  First, you're now asserting that the perceptions experienced in an NDE do not accurately reflect the underlying reality.   This undermine's your claim that the presence of a God in an NDE establishes reincarnation and karma as you've severed the link between the character of the God presented and his actual attributes or character.  Regardless, in point #5 below you're attempting to assert the exact opposite, that the perceptions in an NDE are an accurate reflection of the underlying reality and not illusory.  You can't have it both ways.  You have to choose one or the other.  The good news is that you're fucked either way you go.  If you assert as you are here that the perceptions in an NDE do not in fact represent reality reliably, then we cannot reliably infer anything based upon the content of NDEs, as according to you, it's just a reflection of prior beliefs.  On the other hand, if the perceptions in an NDE accurately reflect reality, as you try to argue in point #5, then you're back to having mutually contradictory accounts of reality.  If those perceptions are accurate, then reality is inconsistent and absurd, and we again cannot rely upon the testimony of NDEs because it is not clear from the content of NDEs what version of reality is in fact the true one.  So, the argument above doesn't help you.  As a matter of principle, though, you need to decide which poison pill you want to swallow and stick with it.

Of course if you do not believe that God exist then for you is all BS.
No need to go any further then.
That is quite bizarre because on one hand you say that you never said that NDEs are BS but on the other hand you dismiss NDEs at every step and God reality at the same time.
It look like you are in the middle of the great ocean not knowing where to go.
Make up your mind yog.

And it looks like you're spouting more irrelevant twaddle.  I'll repeat the problem that you are failing to address:
You cannot show that God was revealing an accurate picture of the afterlife to Cathleen, and that is what you need to do to claim that her account of reincarnation and karma is correct.
Until you can show that, all your pointless crap about what I am or am not doing doesn't matter.  

There is absolutely nothing wrong with his NDE.
It is you that didn't get it.
Go through again yog and you will get it if of course you stop being a total nonsense.
Reincarnation is there.
In fact God shown as Jesus explain clearly what the afterlife is all about.
Kingdoms are dimensions which reflect each being awareness so according each individual awareness they will end up in a particular dimension.
This is about reincarnation yog.
In his NDE God doesn't say that these kingdom are final yet you deduce that they are.
How stupid can you be yog?  

I didn't rely solely on a YouTube  video for my information about his NDE.  In his accounts of his NDE, he says that he saw 'heaven' and 'hell', and speaking about the latter, he spoke of the beings in that realm living that way forever.  So, no, I didn't assume anything.  Ritchie was a life long Christian and knew the definition of heaven and hell.  

You keep on deducing things that never existed.
Your imagination is way way out of control yog.
Look after your health yog.  

And yet more irrelevant twaddle. You're simply running away from the claims you've made about NDEs being evidence for reincarnation and karma. 

It really depend on temporary peace which can be achieved with a glass of wine or a drug or any other artificial way or permanent peace of mind which can only be achieved with hard spiritual work.
Obviously my case is the latter but I guess you never thought about that yog, did you?

You still haven't shown any link between peace and happiness and the conclusion that you are correct about how the system works.  Nor have you shown that permanent peace of mind is possible, nor that you can achieve it through yoga.  These are all articles of faith.  You haven't shown diddly squat, so this is more irrelevant twaddle.

Wrong once again yog.
Your problem (actually one of your many problem ) relate to the fact that you fail to understand what I and other people did write.
What I did write is that each individual has his own free will more or less pronounced so obviously his her relation with God may vary.
A welcome is only the first part of any NDE and means very very little in term of acquiring knowledge from God.
If a particular person is very strong in believing that Jesus is the real God then God will show in Jesus image during all the NDE.
If on the other hand a person did not have any previous belief than God may show as pure light during all the NDE.
All this is pure and simple futility.
It is the knowledge that God give the only important thing.
All the rest mean very little.

More irrelevant twaddle.  I'll repeat the question again as you haven't answered it:

And you still did not answer  the question of how a person knows that the welcome is over in an NDE.

You are the one who brought up the clairvoyance topic not me so is up to you to demonstrate your point not me.

Actually, the fact of the matter is that you were the first to raise the topic, HERE, when you claimed that, "Many NDEs already proved that consciousness separate from the dead body by being able to see their dead body below or to see things or places where these people never been before. Witness confirmed the authenticity of the vision so obviously at the time of physical death the consciousness separate from the body."  The only point I need to prove is that there is an equally likely explanation which accounts for the same evidence, namely clairvoyance.  My evidence for clairvoyance is the same as yours for consciousness leaving the body, namely OBEs.  Unless you can show that clairvoyance can't account for the content of OBEs in NDEs, then your claim that, "NDEs already proved that consciousness separate from the dead body," is thereby refuted.  But continue to make moronic and irrelevant demands about what I do or do not need to do if it makes you feel better.

Consciousness must leave the body for reincarnation to occur.

If you cannot show that consciousness necessarily leaves the body, then you have one less piece of evidence for reincarnation.

Practice give you the evidence that yoga bring you close to God.
We are made of consciousness-energy.
God also.
How do I know?
By practicing yoga more and more awareness come to the surface and more is within waiting to come to the surface.
The total amount of consciousness is God so when you are able to bring to the surface all the consciousness within you are God.
Of course this awareness will come in you in some next reincarnation considering that at the moment as I already said you put a strong negative free will between yourself and God.

More irrelevant twaddle.  Practice warps your mind and makes you believe things that are not true.  See?  I can make unsupported assertions, too.

Me irrational.

Atheists say that there is no need for God because entropy can do the job instead.
Are you kidding me?
And what about all the rosary of atheists dogmas?

More irrelevant twaddle.  You're getting lost in side alleys and forgetting what you came here for.  You claimed you had evidence for reincarnation and karma, yet you haven't been able to produce squat except conflicting NDE reports which only show that NDE evidence is unreliable and by your own admission reflects prior beliefs first, and underlying truth second.

Garbage yog.
An NDE can be accurate without the need to understand 100% of God nature.
NDE are there to give spiritual guidance not to elevate you to God level.

Can be accurate.  My question to you has always been how do we know when they are accurate and when they are not?  By your own account, NDEs in which Jesus God or Buddha God contradict Yoga God, then those Gods are substituting for the true God.  A substitute is by definition inaccurate because it is not "correct in all details."   If Jesus God reveals a permanent hellish abode like in George Ritchie's NDE, when reincarnation is the true reality, then according to you, his NDE is inaccurate.  The question then becomes how do we differentiate between inaccurate NDEs and accurate ones, which is a puizzle you've yet to solve.  Failing that, you have no reliable evidence for reincarnation and karma.

As the consciousness is evidence that energy is there and the other way around also reincarnation is evidence that karma is there.

That doesn't even come close to following logically.  What, did you learn that one in your classes of Sarkarian dogma?

Cathleen NDE is one of the many NDE that clearly prove reincarnation.
Read it again (when you are awake of course).  

Repeating your initial claim does nothing to resolve the objections made to it.  It only shows that you have a dim mind and a short attention span.  The question for pages has been how you reconcile NDE accounts that report things that are mutually contradictory, such as accounts of reincarnation and accounts of no reincarnation.   Pointing back to one or the other simply makes it clear that you don't understand what is being debated, and perhaps are incapable of doing so.

Cathleen NDE clearly talk about reincarnation.
Read it again.

That you think this is even relevant at this point only shows that you're a moron.  This has been asked and answered multiple times.

Sure, I can not bring you any evidence but you can find tons of evidence when you see people starving or being killed or born with disabilities.
There are millions and millions of them.
All around the planet but you are so so stupid to think that all this is due to bad luck.  

I honestly have no idea what your point is here.  Does any of that prove that there is an underlying moral order to the universe?  No, it doesn't.

As to the rest, it's just you ranting pointlessly.

Let us summarize the main points.

1) The welcome has very little to do with what the NDE give you.
The welcome only reflect your free will.
If your free will tell you that God is represented by Jesus then God will show as Jesus or any figure that your free will indicated to you.
As far as you realize that God has no human figure then automatically you will perceive God as pure light or in a spiritual form and the initial welcoming will turn into the reality of how God should be perceived.
This is the beginning and the end of the story related to the welcome.
This welcome is totally irrelevant to the NDE but considering that you put so much energy in this welcoming and the end of it only show how stupid you are.  

You clearly pay infinite attention to a irrelevant point and miss the important ones.
Your stupidity has no limits yog.    

2) Cathleen NDE clearly show how God explained the reincarnation and karma factor.
Unfortunately your thick brain didn't get it. (when you ever get something?)

Here I show you again how reincarnation and karma works.

I asked Him, 'Please tell me. When we, your children, come into existence, do we live just one time or do we live over and over?' He said, 'It's like this' He took me to the entrance of a hall. We stood and looked down this long hall and there were millions and millions of doorways leading off this hall. He made me aware that there were many choices available to me and that that choice was the very answer to the question I had asked. The choice was up to ME. He made me understand that I could choose to stay where I was, that I could choose to walk down that hall and pick a door. He made me aware that picking a door would be my exit out of heaven and I would be born again out of the womb of some woman somewhere on Earth. I asked Him, 'But how do I know what door to pick?' His reply was merely that the door that I picked is my choice. He could not reveal what that life would be like. It would be a mystery.

I asked Him, 'Do we HAVE to pick another door and live over and over?' That in itself would be hell to me because what I had experienced, in large part, was very sad and distressful.

He told me some people choose to go back again and again. He doesn't want them to. He wants them to stay with Him but He understands my feelings. He explained that when we choose to leave Him He removes all memories of previous lives because He doesn't want us distressed. He means for life to be a good thing for all of us.

http://www.nderf.org/Experiences/1cathleen_c_nde.html

As you can see God show that there are millions of exit doors.
These doors represent the choices that people follow in their life so according to one actions he-she will have to go through a particular door which again represent his or her actions in his-her previous life.
This is reincarnation and karma in action yog.

You are free to keep on denying that there is no evidence for reincarnation and karma but the evidence is there whether you like it or no.
Because NDEs are real also what the person who experience the NDE experience something real.  

3) I never said that NDEs are not real.
You dream that I said that.
What you don't get it is that the initial welcoming not representing the real face of God has absolutely nothing to do with whether the NDE is real or not.
God can well show you in a different figure in order to give you a welcoming of your choices according to your free will.
That doesn't mean that what God said or show to you is incorrect.

4) Ritchie does not say that hell is for ever.
In fact he said that life is for ever.
You are the IDIOT that twist his speech so stop being an AH.  


5) Clairvoyance is the topic introduced by you therefore is up to you to demonstrate anything you wish to demonstrate.
As far as it concern me so far there is no evidence that a consciousness living in a alive body-brain is able to create a real NDE.


6) People born in a certain situation clearly prove that in the universe there is order and justice.
This is also reiterated in both Cathleen and Ritchie NDEs.

7) All previous points indicate how dishonest you are both in denying the evidence and giving importance to pointless items while forgetting the important ones.

[The Grand Nudger]

Which certain situations are people born into that clearly proves order and justice in the universe?

Can we get an example?

[Angrboda]

Let us summarize the main points.

1) The welcome has very little to do with what the NDE give you.
The welcome only reflect your free will.
If your free will tell you that God is represented by Jesus then God will show as Jesus or any figure that your free will indicated to you.
As far as you realize that God has no human figure then automatically you will perceive God as pure light or in a spiritual form and the initial welcoming will turn into the reality of how God should be perceived.
This is the beginning and the end of the story related to the welcome.
This welcome is totally irrelevant to the NDE but considering that you put so much energy in this welcoming and the end of it only show how stupid you are.  

And you still haven't answered the fucking question.  How do you know when the welcome is over?  Apparently you don't know!

For all you know, the God that explain reincarnation to Cathleen was just the welcome wagon, and only reflected her prior belief, rather than anything real.  Who can say?  Obviously not you, because you don't know!

You clearly pay infinite attention to a irrelevant point and miss the important ones.
Your stupidity has no limits yog.    

Yeah, sure.  That's why you've danced around the question without answering it.  You're so full of shit.

2) Cathleen NDE clearly show how God explained the reincarnation and karma factor.
Unfortunately your thick brain didn't get it. (when you ever get something?)

Here I show you again how reincarnation and karma works.

---

I asked Him, 'Please tell me. When we, your children, come into existence, do we live just one time or do we live over and over?' He said, 'It's like this' He took me to the entrance of a hall. We stood and looked down this long hall and there were millions and millions of doorways leading off this hall. He made me aware that there were many choices available to me and that that choice was the very answer to the question I had asked. The choice was up to ME. He made me understand that I could choose to stay where I was, that I could choose to walk down that hall and pick a door. He made me aware that picking a door would be my exit out of heaven and I would be born again out of the womb of some woman somewhere on Earth. I asked Him, 'But how do I know what door to pick?' His reply was merely that the door that I picked is my choice. He could not reveal what that life would be like. It would be a mystery.

I asked Him, 'Do we HAVE to pick another door and live over and over?' That in itself would be hell to me because what I had experienced, in large part, was very sad and distressful.

He told me some people choose to go back again and again. He doesn't want them to. He wants them to stay with Him but He understands my feelings. He explained that when we choose to leave Him He removes all memories of previous lives because He doesn't want us distressed. He means for life to be a good thing for all of us.

---

http://www.nderf.org/Experiences/1cathleen_c_nde.html

As you can see God show that there are millions of exit doors.
These doors represent the choices that people follow in their life so according to one actions he-she will have to go through a particular door which again represent his or her actions in his-her previous life.
This is reincarnation and karma in action yog.

And still you fail to grasp the fundamental question at issue.  I could care less that you can pull up some NDE which supports your view, as we can also pull up NDEs that contradict it.  As long as we have contradictions in the content of NDEs, then none of them are reliable.

Take the following excerpt from the NDE of Lorraine Tutmarc:

In my mind I asked, "Where am I?"
I heard a loud, loving voice say, "This is eternity. This is eternity. You are lost!"
It echoed, "You are lost!"
The strong voice came from behind me, so I didn't see who it was, but I knew it was God's voice.
"What is this?" I again asked in my mind.
He replied, "This is the river of death."
His voice echoed, "This is the river of death."
. . . . . . .
He said, "This is the blood that I shed on the cross for your sins."

Lorraine Tutmarc's Near-Death Experience

Here we have Lorraine testifying that God represented the afterlife as being eternal, or never ending, clearly in contradiction to Cathleen's God.  And the God in Lorraine's NDE clearly identifies himself as the God of the bible who was crucified upon the cross and died for mankind's sins.  

Here's what that God said about the afterlife:

31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
. . . . . .
41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44 Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not [e]take care of You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Matthew 25:31-46, NASB [emphasis mine]

So we have two NDEs saying completely opposite things.  The question is not does one or the other affirm a certain belief -- it does -- but rather how we can determine which one is presenting a true account of the afterlife, and which is just a "welcome" that simply reflects the person's prior beliefs?  Until you understand this point, all your stupid claims about NDEs will be worthless.

You are free to keep on denying that there is no evidence for reincarnation and karma but the evidence is there whether you like it or no.
Because NDEs are real also what the person who experience the NDE experience something real.  

Dumbass.  You don't even understand the question.

3) I never said that NDEs are not real.
You dream that I said that.
What you don't get it is that the initial welcoming not representing the real face of God has absolutely nothing to do with whether the NDE is real or not.
God can well show you in a different figure in order to give you a welcoming of your choices according to your free will.
That doesn't mean that what God said or show to you is incorrect.

As shown above, this supposed "welcome" can display a God that is totally contrary to what you believe.  Or, is it Cathleen who is reflecting her prior beliefs in a "welcome" that has nothing to do with the real God?  You don't know.  We've already been over this.  You apparently can't tell what is simply a reflection of the person's prior beliefs and what is not.

4) Ritchie does not say that hell is for ever.
In fact he said that life is for ever.
You are the IDIOT that twist his speech so stop being an AH.  

Even more hideous than the bites and kicks they exchanged, were the sexual abuses many were performing in feverish pantomime.  Perversions I had never dreamed of were being vainly attempted all around us.  It was impossible to tell if the howls of frustration which reached us were actual sounds or only the transference of despairing thoughts. Indeed in this disembodied world it didn't seem to matter. Whatever anyone thought, however fleetingly or unwillingly, was instantly apparent to all around him, more completely than words could have expressed it, faster than sound waves could have carried it. ... What was it going to be like, I thought with sudden panic, to live forever where my most private thoughts were not private at all?


Heaven and hell : Dr. George Ritchie's near-death experience [emphasis mine]

5) Clairvoyance is the topic introduced by you therefore is up to you to demonstrate anything you wish to demonstrate.
As far as it concern me so far there is no evidence that a consciousness living in a alive body-brain is able to create a real NDE.

If you're unwilling to defend your claim that NDEs are proof that consciousness leaves the body, that's fine with me.  We'll just have to conclude that your claim was false and that you have no evidence that consciousness leaves the body.

6) People born in a certain situation clearly prove that in the universe there is order and justice.
This is also reiterated in both Cathleen and Ritchie NDEs.

It's obvious from talking to you that you frequently claim that this or that "clearly" indicates something, or that something is "obviously" true, when you don't really have the first fucking clue.  You regularly mistake your mere belief for fact, and constantly evade answering crucial questions, such as the welcome and clairvoyance questions.  So, no, you need to do more than simply claim it.  If you can't demonstrate why what you say is true, then this is just another one of your silly claims, which we can dismiss without a thought.

7) All previous points indicate how dishonest you are both in denying the evidence and giving importance to pointless items while forgetting the important ones.

Yeah, sure.  I'm dishonest, yet you're the one reaching for reasons to dissemble and avoid answering simple questions.  Go blow it out your ass, fucktard.

[Little Rik]

Which certain situations are people born into that clearly proves order and justice in the universe?

Can we get an example?

Anybody who is suffering in this life it does due to his-her bad karma.
It doesn't matter whether they go through hardship of any kind, premature death, disabilities of any sort and so on.
As physical actions produce reactions according to the laws of physic also humans experience reactions due to their previous action in this or in different lives.
NDEs are real so what these people say is real.

[vulcanlogician]

Which certain situations are people born into that clearly proves order and justice in the universe?

Can we get an example?

Anybody who is suffering in this life it does due to his-her bad karma.
It doesn't matter whether they go through hardship of any kind, premature death, disabilities of any sort and so on.
As physical actions produce reactions according to the laws of physic also humans experience reactions due to their previous action in this or in different lives.
NDEs are real so what these people say is real.  

By that logic, I suppose we should see the Holocaust as something fair and just when looked at from a cosmic point of view, right?

[Little Rik]

Anybody who is suffering in this life it does due to his-her bad karma.
It doesn't matter whether they go through hardship of any kind, premature death, disabilities of any sort and so on.
As physical actions produce reactions according to the laws of physic also humans experience reactions due to their previous action in this or in different lives.
NDEs are real so what these people say is real.  

By that logic, I suppose we should see the Holocaust as something fair and just when looked at from a cosmic point of view, right?

You can bet that the Israeli that at the moment screw the Palestinians will reborn to experience one more holocaust or any other bad news.
Nothing to do with me VL.
I didn't created the karma or the law of action and reactions.

[Anomalocaris]

The running skirmish between the scarecrow and real people with time on their hands continues.