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The argument from power.
#1
The argument from power.
As will power is essential to goodness, it must have a reliable source for goodness to have proper accurate meaning.
Without God giving power it does not have a reliable source.
Goodness has a proper accurate meaning.
Therefore God exists.


The three premises need elaboration, I will post one post per premise elaborating on them.


I will ask people to check validity of argument before the premises are debated or elaborated.

The argument can rephrased:

Praise to have accurate meaning, will power part of it must have a reliable source.
Without God giving power it does not have a reliable source.
Praise has a proper accurate meaning.
Therefore God exists.

Will elaborate on each premise once we get past the over all structure validity.
"….except those without power/capability - who do not find the means and find no guidance to the way, it maybe God will forgive these, and God is Forgiving, Compassionate." (in 4Th Surah).

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#2
RE: The argument from power.
willpower: control exerted to do something or restrain impulses

I don't need to exert "control" to do something good or necessarily restrain myself from doing bad. 

All that takes is choice. god is unnecessary.
God(s) and religions are man made and the bane of humanity. 

Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most. Ozzy or Twain/take your pick
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#3
RE: The argument from power.
I will elaborated each premise and discuss after the validity of the argument is discussed.
"….except those without power/capability - who do not find the means and find no guidance to the way, it maybe God will forgive these, and God is Forgiving, Compassionate." (in 4Th Surah).

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#4
RE: The argument from power.
(June 3, 2018 at 11:07 am)MysticKnight Wrote: As will power is essential to goodness, it must have a reliable source for goodness to have proper accurate meaning.
Without God giving power it does not have a reliable source.
Goodness has a proper accurate meaning.
Therefore God exists.


The three premises need elaboration, I will post one post per premise elaborating on them.


I will ask people to check validity of argument before the premises are debated or elaborated.

The argument can rephrased:

Praise to have accurate meaning, will power part of it must have a reliable source.
Without God giving power it does not have a reliable source.
Praise has a proper accurate meaning.
Therefore God exists.

Will elaborate on each premise once we get past the over all structure validity.


That was a whole lot of nothing.
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#5
RE: The argument from power.
Quote:As will power is essential to goodness,
 

Sez who?

Quote: it must have a reliable source for goodness to have proper accurate meaning.

Non sequitur.

 
Quote:Without God giving power it does not have a reliable source.

Asserting the conclusion.


 
Quote:Goodness has a proper accurate meaning.

I look forward to you telling us what this meaning is.  Before you do, consider the following:  Theft can be good or bad.  If I steal something from you for no other reason that a selfish desire to possess what you have, this isn't goodness.  If I steal food or medicine to help a starving or desperately ill child, it can be nothing but goodness.

 
Quote:Therefore God exists.

This does not follow.

 
Quote:The three premises need elaboration,

Bloody well right they do.

Quote:I will post one post per premise elaborating on them.

Joy.


 
Quote:I will ask people to check validity of argument before the premises are debated or elaborated.

Done my bit.  Carry on.

 
Quote:The argument can rephrased:

Praise to have accurate meaning, will power part of it must have a reliable source.
Without God giving power it does not have a reliable source.
Praise has a proper accurate meaning.
Therefore God exists.

This isn't exactly 'rephrased'.  You've just plugged in the word 'praise' in place of the word 'goodness'.


 
Quote:Will elaborate on each premise once we get past the over all structure validity.

Yeah, good luck with that.

Boru
'A man is accepted into a church for what he believes.  He is turned out for what he knows.' - Mark Twain
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#6
RE: The argument from power.
I think before one proceeds too far along this track, a basic question needs to be answered.

(February 9, 2018 at 7:03 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: When we look at things like wants and desires, the things we value and the things we don't, there exists a material explanation in our origin as biological beings. We evolved to have wants and desires and goals and values. We hunger for food when it is necessary that we eat because if we didn't eat, we would die. Evolution only preserves those solutions which are self-justifying. Those animals that didn't get hungry and eat, they died, leaving the world to those that did. Our wants and desires exist in us and other animals because if they didn't, those animals would be replaced in the gene pool by those that did. So evolution provides a material explanation for both why we have wants, generally, and also why we have the specific wants and values that we do. What explains why God has these specific wants, desires, goals, and values?

. . . .

I will also share with you that my concern is not solely motivated by LadyForCamus' question, the subject of God's values has been on my mind for some time. The typical explanation for why God has the moral values he does is that there exists a right set of moral values, and a wrong set, and it's just a brute fact that God has only the right set of moral values (what these moral values are right with respect to, or in relation to, is never fully explained). But fine. It's an article of faith that God is good, and no deviation from that mantra will be tolerated. Fine, fair enough. But then we come to the question of God's values. Surely he has some, any being without values must be forced to depend upon reflex actions to motivate them to do anything, but then God isn't a biological being, so the concept of reflexes doesn't apply. So there are two questions here. Why does God have values at all, as they seem to be an artifact of a biological nature, and not something an immaterial spirit would have? And secondly, if God's specific values are simply a brute fact of his existence, they "just are," doesn't that make them essentially arbitrary and therefore meaningless? Unlike moral values, there does not appear to be a right and a wrong set of normal values. Their "rightness" is a consequence of the context, namely what processes and behaviors they facilitate, and in our case, a consequence of evolution that we have them. So, again; why?

This has prompted me to reformulate the Euthyphro dilemma into a form which seems to target a lacuna in Christian theology. Namely, what is the foundation of God's values, their explanation, so to speak. This leads to a new and different dilemma:

"Does God value certain thing because those things are valuable of their own accord, or are certain things valuable because God values them?"

Ultimately, I see this as related to the questions of meaning and purpose. Our values are the building blocks out of which we create meaning and purpose in our life. We value having a loving, nurturing relationship with another human being, so we find having and raising children meaningful. If God's values likewise are the foundation of the meaning and purpose he provides for people's lives, it is essential that we provide some foundation for those values, otherwise they are arbitrary, vacuous, and meaningless. How can a set of values that are themselves just brute, arbitrary facts of his existence ever serve as the building blocks for truly meaningful lives? To my view, unless an explanation for God's values is given, it's impossible to derive any meaning based simply on "what he wants and values." Maybe I've overlooked something, but it appears to me that life under God is as essentially meaningless and without purpose as the supposed lives of non-believers.

What is the foundation for God's values?
[Image: ak_botan_saionji_005.jpg]
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#7
RE: The argument from power.
What you asked involves a deep mysticism of what it means for God to be both One and non-divided pure essence without multiplicity, at the same time, containing in him all things, in perfect harmony, such that he is each thing at it's perfection, and all things without divisions, and by which all things get their reality from and by which all things get their guidance and nature from and form from.

To prove that we simple say if God exists, he must be ultimate such that he cannot lack life or a praise or perfection. At such creating life doesn't increase amount of life but rather it's derived from his reality.

I will elaborate, but, this topic might take a tangent (I don't mind that).
"….except those without power/capability - who do not find the means and find no guidance to the way, it maybe God will forgive these, and God is Forgiving, Compassionate." (in 4Th Surah).

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#8
RE: The argument from power.
Quote:...containing in him all things, in perfect harmony...

You realize that this is impossible, even in a metaphysical sense, correct? 

Boru
'A man is accepted into a church for what he believes.  He is turned out for what he knows.' - Mark Twain
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#9
RE: The argument from power.
It's rather impossible for greatness and praise to have meaning were it not that unifying source that is the ultimate of all things.
"….except those without power/capability - who do not find the means and find no guidance to the way, it maybe God will forgive these, and God is Forgiving, Compassionate." (in 4Th Surah).

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#10
RE: The argument from power.
MK, please don't elaborate!
Brevity, soul, wit!









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