Anyone know what this argument is about?

[DeistPaladin]

In the DADT debate, I'm hearing a familiar argument from homophobic conservatives that I'd first heard back in 2004 with the whole gay marriage debates. It goes along the lines of claiming that "history teaches us" that any time a civilization tolerates homosexuality, it's on its way to decline.

http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heat...dicts-doom

Gohmert went on to suggest that the House, which today voted to repeal Don’t Ask Don’t Tell 250-175, is opening up the floodgates to a disorganized and ineffective military. According to the Congressman, “when militaries throughout history of the greatest nations in the world have adopted the policy that it’s fine for homosexuality to be overt…they’re toward the end of its existence as a great nation.”

Ignoring the logical fallacy of the spurious assumption that correlation = causation, can anyone tell me what this allegation is even based on? I'm not aware of any homophobic great civilizations that fell into decline after lifting its taboo. In fact, I can think of one prominent counter-example. Rome was a thriving pagan/gay-friendly empire that collapsed after its embrace of Christianity.

I've never actually debated with anyone who used this argument so I haven't had the chance to ask for specific examples. Anyone else know?

[Minimalist]

They are not restrained by reality. They have this big book of bullshit that they prefer.

[thesummerqueen]

You should also ask how many of them actually remember 25% of their history classes, much less 50% of it, DP. Pretty sure that the average text book is Palin's and Beck's kryptonite.

[Justtristo]

Ignoring the logical fallacy of the spurious assumption that correlation = causation, can anyone tell me what this allegation is even based on? I'm not aware of any homophobic great civilizations that fell into decline after lifting its taboo. In fact, I can think of one prominent counter-example. Rome was a thriving pagan/gay-friendly empire that collapsed after its embrace of Christianity.

Did not the western Roman empire collapse a century after it adopted Christianity (a quite homophobic religion) as the state religion?

[Anomalocaris]

Ignoring the logical fallacy of the spurious assumption that correlation = causation, can anyone tell me what this allegation is even based on? I'm not aware of any homophobic great civilizations that fell into decline after lifting its taboo. In fact, I can think of one prominent counter-example. Rome was a thriving pagan/gay-friendly empire that collapsed after its embrace of Christianity.

I've never actually debated with anyone who used this argument so I haven't had the chance to ask for specific examples. Anyone else know?

It seems to be based on the fact that christian self-loathers always manages to find someone else to loath even more. Let's lock Gohmert in a room with a Spartan hoplite and let him learn just how ineffective a military force of homosexuals could be.

[Minimalist]

Did not the western Roman empire collapse a century after it adopted Christianity (a quite homophobic religion) as the state religion?

More like 150....and the Eastern Roman Empire lasted another thousand years.

[Anomalocaris]

It seems to me that in modern times, no culture which had previously been pagan but which had subsequently largely adopted Christianity can be said to have prospered.

[Shell B]

I don't think there is any relation between the declines of civilizations and homosexuality or Christianity. War, economy, disease, failure to advance in the fields of medicine and technology are all far more obvious and likely reasons. Oh, let's not forget natural disasters. All of this speculation on the declines of civilizations is just shit slinging. We all know by now that no argument against homosexuality is more than homophobia. I have not heard one single argument that did not boil down to a but, but, but it's gross and unnatural.

[downbeatplumb]

The man was just trying to put forward an argument to support his prejudice.
The fact that it doesnt actually stand up is no surprise as the pejudice itself is stupid.

Britain has had openly gay people in the military for a while now and they all seem to mix fine.

I know several gays in the navy profesionally and it makes no difference to there work and how they are perceived, the only time it comes up is in humour, thats because the military have a 'robust' sense of humour and will take the piss out of any aspect of a person.

[Minimalist]

I don't think there is any relation between the declines of civilizations and homosexuality or Christianity. War, economy, disease, failure to advance in the fields of medicine and technology are all far more obvious and likely reasons. Oh, let's not forget natural disasters. All of this speculation on the declines of civilizations is just shit slinging. We all know by now that no argument against homosexuality is more than homophobia. I have not heard one single argument that did not boil down to a but, but, but it's gross and unnatural.

In either case, expect to hear the preachers shrieking bloody murder in the next few days....


http://apnews.excite.com/article/2010121...EDHG0.html

WASHINGTON (AP) - In a landmark vote for gay rights, the Senate on Saturday voted to advance legislation that would overturn the military ban on openly gay troops known as "don't ask, don't tell."

The 63-33 test vote all but guarantees the legislation will pass the Senate, possibly by day's end, and reach the president's desk before the new year.