Anyone know what this argument is about?

[Anomalocaris]

Preachers are nothing more than rusty shit making machines seriously out of compliance with local noise ordinances.

[DeistPaladin]

More like 150

Really, it's a tough call exactly. Rome (western empire) went out with a whimper rather than a bang.

The date often given is 476 when the final emperor officially abdicated. However, by that time, he abdicated because he was an emperor without an actual empire to rule. The fall of Rome began about 100 years prior at the battle of Adrianople. Italy was overrun by the Visigoths in the first part of the fifth century, with Rome sacked in 410. Rome was sacked even more thoroughly by the Vandals in 455. The Ostrogoths moved in shortly afterwords. After about 20 years, they finally told the Roman emperor his services were no longer needed.

[Minimalist]

More like 150

Really, it's a tough call exactly. Rome (western empire) went out with a whimper rather than a bang.

The date often given is 476 when the final emperor officially abdicated. However, by that time, he abdicated because he was an emperor without an actual empire to rule. The fall of Rome began about 100 years prior at the battle of Adrianople. Italy was overrun by the Visigoths in the first part of the fifth century, with Rome sacked in 410. Rome was sacked even more thoroughly by the Vandals in 455. The Ostrogoths moved in shortly afterwords. After about 20 years, they finally told the Roman emperor his services were no longer needed.

I know...but a comatose patient is still alive until his heart stops beating. That's when they fill out the death certificate.

[Anomalocaris]

The point is Christian homophobia seemed to have made Rome more effete, not more virile.

[DeistPaladin]

The point is Christian homophobia seemed to have made Rome more effete, not more virile.

It certainly was like a parasite that sucked the life out of its host. It drained much in resources, divided the empire with its persecution of the pagans, and competed with the military for human resources. One need not simply resort to fallacious assumptions that correlation shows causation. One can actually make the case for causation.

[technophobe]

What everyone refuses to acknowledge is that homosexuals have been serving in the military for decades.

I guess as long as they keep it in their footlocker, everyone's happy.

Dumbasses.

[Ubermensch]

Perhaps this isn't exactly on topic, but since the collapse of the Western Roman Empire and its Christianisation were mentioned, I feel compelled to post this.

[Minimalist]

The point is Christian homophobia seemed to have made Rome more effete, not more virile.

After 40 years of studying the issue I came to the conclusion that the Roman Empire fell because of "pilot error."

The initial division of the empire by Diocletian set the stage for the impoverishment of the West. Constantine's mistake was to turn the army into an cross of border guards and a single mobile reserve army under his direct command. The border guards could not withstand a determined attack and the mobile reserve could not respond quickly enough to scattered threats. Constantine's reason for this had nothing to do with military necessity and everything to do with preventing rival generals from arising to threaten the emperor....as he had done.

His dalliance with xtianity pales in significance with this decision.

[Anomalocaris]

One could argue that the Comitatensis and limitanei system worked reasonably well until Adrianople. Between 50 - 31 BC the Rome seems to me to have readily made up several times the loss at Adrianople. It seems to me what doomed western empire after 376 was the inability to make good losses in a way that she might have in second punic war or civil wars of 1st century BC. Apparently roman empire of the 4th century is not able to truly mobilize manpower reserve into deployable armies the way it could during the 1st century BC. Since the total manpower pool in 4 th century AD can't be less than the pool of citizens before 1AD, I think some sort of societal transformation, possibly tied to christianization, possibly not, must underly the decreased martial vigor of the empire.