Saudi journalist killed and hacked inside Saudi embassy in Istanbul

[WinterHold]

Atlass, PLEASE STOP.....

I do NOT like Bibi anymore than I do Trump.

But our entire species LIVES ON THE SAME FUCKING PLANET! 

I am 52 years old, seen enough us vs them BULLSHIT from all sides of the world.

The Holocaust was a horrible event, and one monster caused that. Now if you think every Jew supports what Bibi is doing, you'd be wrong. Just like you do not like the government you live under. Just like I do not like my current president.

My X wife is Japanese, HER GRANDPARENTS, were alive and America's enemy in WW2. It is possible to look at the individual and separate them from the governments they live under. Just like I accept you don't like the one you live under.

It still remains, between the theocracies of the middle east, the closed states like North Korea, the west, while under assault by white nationalists, we still have more of an opportunity to stop that trend. Saudi Arabia and Iran and North Korea do not have anything like our open societies.

Is the west perfect? HELL NO. IE the orange bully. But if I can see you as an individual, do me the favor and see me as such. And even with Jews, do not assume they all love Trump. I have been watching the news here, and the Jews of Pittsburgh DO NOT LIKE TRUMP. And on top of that the Muslims of Pittsburgh  raised $70,000 dollars for the victims of the massacre at the Synagogue this week.'s

Netanyahu -Bibi-'s political stance is a zionist stance: he is from the zionist lobby that believed it has the right to kill Palestinians and take their lands. His lobby exploited the humans of Palestine for generations; and cut a wound so deep between Muslims and Jews -probably forever; and probably would end with a war-.

I despise the likes of Netanyahu who use the pain and misery of Jews for their own advantage.
Yes; the societies here are as close as a cage. The common word I grew up to -and most my Arab brotheren- is to never criticize or talk about the government. It has eyes everywhere, watching the phone, watches the internet, and people who criticize it go to prison to get tortured until they die.

Ironically it was true. All them stories were true, and I'm living them now. And the advent of MBS was the needle that cause the explosion: now everybody knows that I wasn't exagerating or lying when I said the Arab regimes are monsters, Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Sudan...all of them. To each his way of torture, all are monsters with different accents.

Just like NK. The soviet union had more freedom than these regimes.

You are an individual to me; Brian, and that's what I believe Islam is stating anyways. The evidence for such thing is in the Quran, and it is so clear for the eyes.

[The Grand Nudger]

People knew that arab regimes were monstrous long before the last few weeks, bud.

[WinterHold]

People knew that arab regimes were monstrous long before the last few weeks, bud.

I didn't say the opposite.
But they used to hide it least. After MBS; they just exploded: the true colors -or the sharp teeth- were exposed to the public, even the infants of Mongolia know that Saudi Arabia is "a kingdom of trash that hacks people to pieces inside consulates".

Let's be honest: the Sauds kept a long history of keeping their dirty shit underground. But sending hit squads of "Saudi nationality", to kill and torture in countries like Turkey, is a sign of difference hitting the chain of command; and that difference is "MBS": or as PR call him "the reformer".

The asshole will cause a civil war.

[The Grand Nudger]

Who used to hide it?  The despots?  Not well enough (obviously, look at this amateur hour cover-up).  The people who call despots despots?  That doesn't make any sense at all.

What you'll have to confront, eventually, is that the people  at the center of your theory of everything that's wrong with the middle east have long pointed these things out and sought (at least some) of the changes you seek.  It is local support which perpetuates this state of affairs. You think that "the people" have been subdued...but history and current events have shown us that "the people" are onboard with this, provided that the despot is their despot.

Would you, for example..like I, wish that the ksa was rearranged as a secular western democracy (like canadia, for example)? Do you think that "the people" want that, or just us?

[Macoleco]

The fact the Saudi Arabia doesnt even have to hide the brutality of its theocracy in a globalized world, and still keep its political power in the international community, is scary

[WinterHold]

Who used to hide it?  The despots?  Not well enough (obviously, look at this amateur hour cover-up).  The people who call despots despots?  That doesn't make any sense at all.

What you'll have to confront, eventually, is that the people  at the center of your theory of everything that's wrong with the middle east have long pointed these things out and sought (at least some) of the changes you seek.  It is local support which perpetuates this state of affairs.  You think that "the people" have been subdued...but history and current events have shown us that "the people" are onboard with this, provided that the despot is their despot.  

Would you, for example..like I, wish that the ksa was rearranged as a secular western democracy (like canadia, for example)?  Do you think that "the people" want that, or just us?

The Sauds, they used to hide their brutality and only do foul crimes like this to the domestic grounds, or in other parts of Arabia.
But taking it to Europe, and butcher a journalist inside a consulate in a NATO country -and lying to the world officially- is the new thing. This is new, the kingdom was "not touched" in the media.

Many spoke about other hellish things which weren't exposed publicly yet -though I'm sure mostly all governments know it but didn't tell this citizens because the interest is too big with KSA-, but the stories include torture -very extreme to the degree of dying or get a permanent disability-, assassination, stalking and spying -there are whole buildings for that job and it was exposed to the media; it's not fantasy, and more.

I would always support one idea: everybody have the right to live this life without compulsion. But to answer your last question: no. I think the Middle East is not one, and the people are cut between different factions. Too much pride over countries and flags that they didn't even make.

Canada is not building a wall or hacking journalists; so that's that.

---

The fact the Saudi Arabia doesnt even have to hide the brutality of its theocracy in a globalized world, and still keep its political power in the international community, is scary

The secular law doesn't put the possibility of a mad person (literally a psychopath) like MBS controlling a big economy, it didn't expect Hitler, or Stalin, and now it didn't expect characters like Kim of Korea and MBS in SA. Sanctions must be more serious, and a new backup is presented in the cases of psychopaths ruling over big economies.

It's scary beyond limit.

[The Grand Nudger]

The fact the Saudi Arabia doesnt even have to hide the brutality of its theocracy in a globalized world, and still keep its political power in the international community, is scary

 It's becoming more and more difficult to deal with entrenched powers as the opportunity cost (and possible consequences) of conflict skyrockets.  

The Sauds, they used to hide their brutality and only do foul crimes like this to the domestic grounds, or in other parts of Arabia.
But taking it to Europe, and butcher a journalist inside a consulate in a NATO country -and lying to the world officially- is the new thing. This is new, the kingdom was "not touched" in the media.

....except when they're producing and maintaining a terrorist movement that flies planes into buildings..I guess....?

I honestly don't know what to tell you.  It may be the case that ksa is great at hiding shit from -you-...a subject under it's control and authority.  That you, at some point in your life (long before you came here, obvs), came to the sudden realization that something was wrong with the place you live.  We've all been there.  

Many spoke about other hellish things which weren't exposed publicly yet -though I'm sure mostly all governments know it but didn't tell this citizens because the interest is too big with KSA-, but the stories include torture -very extreme to the degree of dying or get a permanent disability-, assassination, stalking and spying -there are whole buildings for that job and it was exposed to the media; it's not fantasy, and more.

Then why do I know that ksa is a hellhole?  My government and the media aren't doing a very good job of hiding that fact, lol.  

I would always support one idea: everybody have the right to live this life without compulsion. But to answer your last question: no. I think the Middle East is not one, and the people are cut between different factions. Too much pride over countries and flags that they didn't even make.

I'm not sure I understand you response, fully.  No as in -you- wouldn't like to wake up in a ksa that's a secular western democracy like canadia....or no as in you actually know that "the people" of ksa would not be behind that idea?  

The secular law doesn't put the possibility of a mad person (literally a psychopath) like MBS controlling a big economy, it didn't expect Hitler, or Stalin, and now it didn't expect characters like Kim of Korea and MBS in SA. Sanctions must be more serious, and a new backup is presented in the cases of psychopaths ruling over big economies.

It's scary beyond limit.

OFC it does...nutbar, lol.  Neither Hitler nor Stalin came as a surprise.  People were sounding the alarms a decade in advance - hell..a millennium in advance..  The trouble is that sovereignty is a thing, lol.  We've placed sanctions on NOKO for a long time..but we don't invade...and those sanctions have thusfar failed to topple the regime.  They may even have strengthened local support and further stratified anti-american sentiment. So long as the current regime of wherever maintains political stability the worlds options are limited in dealing with them. We can register our displeasure..say it was a stupid and horrible thing to do, and that the stupid and horrible thing is being done poorly, and that we would strongly prefer that they stop doing the stupid and horrible thing. We can stress that this will impact future relations, we could even walk away from the table -conceding all possible leverage and building their homegrown pr campaign for them in it's entirety while simultaneously impoverishing the people under the regime whom the regime does not even attempt to represent.

Sound familiar?

[Deesse23]

The Sauds, they used to hide their brutality and only do foul crimes like this to the domestic grounds, or in other parts of Arabia.
But taking it to Europe, and butcher a journalist inside a consulate in a NATO country -and lying to the world officially- is the new thing. This is new, the kingdom was "not touched" in the media.

Technically spaeking Turkey is not (yet) a member of the EU, 90% of its territory is in Asia, so nothing was taken to Europe by the killing of Kashoggi.

Many spoke about other hellish things which weren't exposed publicly yet -though I'm sure mostly all governments know it but didn't tell this citizens because the interest is too big with KSA-, but the stories include torture -very extreme to the degree of dying or get a permanent disability-, assassination, stalking and spying -there are whole buildings for that job and it was exposed to the media; it's not fantasy, and more.

You seem to have no idea how much information a free press does have acees too and spreads in a free society. Nowadays its really hard for anyone to hide shit from the public. Western governments have a really hard time to "hide" crucial info from the public. Ask the current US president if you dont believe me.

So, yes everybody here knew where Bin Laden was from, since at least 9/12/2001, i have seen on public TV whole doumentaries about him his dad and the whole family. Everybody knew where most of the other 9/11 guys were from as well everybody here knows about the Saudi administration. Dont be foolish thinking that we are nearly as uninformed as the KSA public probably is.

I am 50y old now and i cant remember a time when i didnt know what the Sauds are and what not.

[WinterHold]

The Sauds, they used to hide their brutality and only do foul crimes like this to the domestic grounds, or in other parts of Arabia.
But taking it to Europe, and butcher a journalist inside a consulate in a NATO country -and lying to the world officially- is the new thing. This is new, the kingdom was "not touched" in the media.

....except when they're producing and maintaining a terrorist movement that flies planes into buildings..I guess....?

I honestly don't know what to tell you.  It may be the case that ksa is great at hiding shit from -you-...a subject under it's control and authority.  That you, at some point in your life (long before you came here, obvs), came to the sudden realization that something was wrong with the place you live.  We've all been there.  

No, actually you and your people -excuse me- are the problem, you are the ones who blindly support the Sauds in international grounds and give them training and weapons. Some countries -like Canada- have very low support for the Sauds and low amount of political hypocrisy, but what about the rest of the world and especially the west?
We all know that to western political powers, humans are numbers abroad; human rights can be subject to change if the right cash was payed, I always known that the Sauds are thugs and this headline is an old story I always heard since I was a child, you can even track my history here in the forum.


It's old news; but it finally got the interest of the political wings in the west because the world system itself is threatened by the act; if murder and torture became a standard in consulates and embassys, that would be pissing on other countries' sovereignty. That what the idiot MBS have caused; it shook the world system for sure; this is new.

The torture and killing is old. The location though is very new and very dangerous.

I always knew something was wrong with this place. And I always wanted to get out.
Why do you think I learned English ???

Many spoke about other hellish things which weren't exposed publicly yet -though I'm sure mostly all governments know it but didn't tell this citizens because the interest is too big with KSA-, but the stories include torture -very extreme to the degree of dying or get a permanent disability-, assassination, stalking and spying -there are whole buildings for that job and it was exposed to the media; it's not fantasy, and more.

Then why do I know that ksa is a hellhole?  My government and the media aren't doing a very good job of hiding that fact, lol. 

No; they are the backup of the Sauds:

The secular law doesn't put the possibility of a mad person (literally a psychopath) like MBS controlling a big economy, it didn't expect Hitler, or Stalin, and now it didn't expect characters like Kim of Korea and MBS in SA. Sanctions must be more serious, and a new backup is presented in the cases of psychopaths ruling over big economies.

It's scary beyond limit.

OFC it does...nutbar, lol.  Neither Hitler nor Stalin came as a surprise.  People were sounding the alarms a decade in advance - hell..a millennium in advance..  The trouble is that sovereignty is a thing, lol.  We've placed sanctions on NOKO for a long time..but we don't invade...and those sanctions have thusfar failed to topple the regime.  They may even have strengthened local support and further stratified anti-american sentiment. So long as the current regime of wherever maintains political stability the worlds options are limited in dealing with them. We can register our displeasure..say it was a stupid and horrible thing to do, and that the stupid and horrible thing is being done poorly, and that we would strongly prefer that they stop doing the stupid and horrible thing. We can stress that this will impact future relations, we could even walk away from the table -conceding all possible leverage and building their homegrown pr campaign for them in it's entirety while simultaneously impoverishing the people under the regime whom the regime does not even attempt to represent. Sound familiar?

No, you are wrong because as far as I know there's a UN that exists especially to "prevent another world war", this same UN has corruption, countries that abuse its system with the Power of the Veto; luanching biased decisions.I think this UN is supposed to be the one in charge, but Rwanda, Iraq, Syria, Yemen.

It's a fucked up system by fucked up regimes made after a fucked up massacre called WW2, and it fails to even catch a small criminal like MBS..so please.

[Pat Mustard]

We halted that support in 2006...........I can only assume you mean shrub when you say dumbfuck, but shrub didn't make EU policy, so?  If by dumbfuck you mean the trumpster..well, no..because it wasn't the trumpsters admin that did that, and that policy continued from shrub, through obama, and now is inherited by the trumpster.  

Facts, straight, instead of stirring shit..right?

(the amusing thing about this, at least as far as atlass concerns - is that he's preaching to the choir when it comes to palestine..in a crowd of largely liberal atheists....but it seems like he doesn't realize it, lol.)

Well when I was talking about Dumbfuck, I was specifically thinking about the latest round of cuts, which were aimed squarely at the parts of Palestinian society playing Chaim Rumkowski to Likud's Heinrich Himmler.