Exodus 21

[Drich]

A society that needs slavery to succeed is worthless.

what magic land to you live in? there is not a country on earth that is not currently dependant on slavery in one form or another.

---

Whether they treated their slaves better than their neighbors is debatable and really doesn't matter. Is slavery immoral or not? The god of the Bible sure thought it was needed at the time.

immoral yes, unrighteous no.. Morality being the measure of right and wrong man uses.. mind you morality did accept slavery at one point. When it did there were no limits on how badly you could treat a slave.

That said your life today is supported or at least subsidized by modern slaves. We just don't call them slaves because it is immoral, we call them migrant workers or contract workers or seasonal farm workers.. or anywhere where raw material is being harvested or reclaimed.

[Minimalist]

there is not a country on earth that is not currently dependant on slavery in one form or another.

So we can add "slavery" to the long list of things about which you have no understanding at all, eh dripshit.

[Astreja]

A society that needs slavery to succeed is worthless.

what magic land to you live in? there is not a country on earth that is not currently dependant on slavery in one form or another.

(looks around) Well, *I* don't have any slaves, I get paid for my work, and I avoid buying products made with sweatshop labour.

I want us to do better. You seem to have given up. Sucks to be you.

[Drich]

what magic land to you live in? there is not a country on earth that is not currently dependant on slavery in one form or another.

(looks around) Well, *I* don't have any slaves, I get paid for my work, and I avoid buying products made with sweatshop labour.

I want us to do better.  You seem to have given up.  Sucks to be you.

do you own a cell phone? (lithium/china toxic hazardous material no protection for workers/15 year life span alot empoly children to mine)
what about a flat screen or laptop? sub assemblies in child labor camps
do you take any medicine? (sulfur collection/ most deadly job on the planet guys make $10 a week no body over 40)
Do you own anything with steel in it? (reclaimation and mining china india unimaginable slave work)
have you ever eaten in a restaurant that you did not own? (cheap produce and beef from central south america)
Ever shopped aldi or trader joes? (same as above) these conditions also extend to america and other food super markets... look up agurculture labor exemptions.. no minimum wage no over time right here in the us. no age restriction on labor on some crops.
own any leather products? (most of the finest and cheapest come from india there is a video on that/youtube)
own a car? from assembly in mexico to subassemblies in china, not to mention tires... we could not afford to buy a car otherwise.
ever wash anything? palm oil is the base for many different soaps which is almost the worst offenders in modern slavery as they operate 1850 style plantations and still beat their slaves.
don't get me started if your a pot head... or heroin or coke..

Then I'm afraid I must tell you, you are indeed supporting slavery with your money.

How smug are you without first doing a google search, you could have been lke hey alexia or hey siri I need a list of everyday items produced by modern slaves.. and they would have been like  boom: https://listverse.com/2014/12/16/10-ever...ave-labor/
https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news...d-economy/
https://www.endslaverynow.org/blog/artic...ve-options

in a alexia voice (you are a bad person/look at all the things on this list you had me order!!)

But here's the thing... here is where it is not black or white/ Slavery is not always bad m'kay, slavery is not always bad...

Without these slave labor jobs... there would be no way for these slaves to live. in these countries where these production methods are allowed there is no state support or unemployment benefits.. if you do not work these slave jobs your family dies So 2/3 of the world works this way with no safty net and no other means of support. take away these slave jobs is taking away a person's only way to make a living in most cases.

so now what moral douche... which is the lessor of two evils? allowing slavery under regulation or... letting people starve?

or will you just close your eyes and pretend you don't know any of this and just keep to your little circle of friends and just keep repeating slavery is bad m'kay slavery is bad.. that way you can judge God and his followers or anyone else for that matter who understand how the world you live in works.

[Minimalist]

They aren't "slaves," dripshit.  They are workers who are delighted to have jobs no matter how shitty they are.  That's capitalism, for you.

But I bet you think "jesus" loves capitalism, don't you?

[Astreja]

But here's the thing... here is where it is not black or white/ Slavery is not always bad m'kay, slavery is not always bad...

I disagree absolutely.  No exceptions.  Slavery is always bad.  It is our responsibility as a civilization to work towards ending the exploitation of all sentient beings, human and non-human. It may take us a thousand years or more, but we have to keep trying to reduce others' burden of pain.

[Angrboda]

So, basically you don't have an argument.  Just more "neener neener, I'm right, you're wrong, la la la, I can't hear you" bullshit.  

Your defense of God and the bible fails as it is based on an invalid argument.  There is nothing 'practical' about an invalid argument.

Additionally, you missed the following:

my argument is despite man's best efforts we have not even been able to conceive of a plausible working society that does not have slavery at it's base. the fact that there has never been one despite our efforts to create classless societies  one group always rises to the top. Orwell animal farm is a great illustration of this where/when a society tries to make everything equal it turns out more tyrannical. in saying that... neaner neaner..

And as noted, that argument is a non sequitur. It is an appeal to ignorance, and thus your conclusion that slavery is necessary for a society to function fails. Since your argument, loosely, is that God was not immoral in tolerating slavery in the bible because slavery is necessary for the function of a society also fails. Additionally, you're equivocating. A classless society and a society in which all persons enjoy the same or similar economic freedoms is not necessary for us to have a society in which the slavery which is referred to in the bible does not exist. You're simply pulling a bait and switch. I don't think anyone is claiming, necessarily, that inequality of economic opportunity is necessarily immoral, and that is not what they are referring to when they discuss slavery in the bible.

Slavery is divided into social and economical definitions. 
Chattle slavery is different because it has the chattle prefix, meaning owned/property slaves.

the Social side of slavery is having your will supplanted by the will of another or your will must first be filtered through a system. example you want to marry guy a, but your culture demand you marry guy b because for whatever social communal reason. Or you want job A, but because you belong to this group or sect of people you only qualify for job b (the sunni arabs verse the shia kurds in northern Iraq (pre gulf war 11)for example, and the resulting genocide because they were pushing what their society demanded of them/they were being displaced and refused to go so saddam gassed them.) your will or the will of others like you is first subject to the will of another or others. This describes a distinct lack of basic freedom to choose for one's self how and where they want to live.

The economic side basically describes someone who works under a living wage for their region (meaning would other wise die/not afford a new car or live like everyone else, living wage means can sustain life) and subsequently has to be subsidized with either 'other benefits' from the country and or company for the basics of life. shelter food clothes etc. As a result freedoms are workers rights are often exchanged for these extras.. 2/3 of the world works like this. my family worked like this up to my grand father, and my aunts and uncles worked this way. 

Then there is chattel slavery. sugar, coffee bananas and other topical grown food and or drink still use chattel slaves/ outright owned people. they may receive a wage of some kind, but every aspect of their lives is dependant on the plantation. they neither have social or economic freedom. the plantation decides everything for them.

And as noted, you need a definition of slavery that is consistent with both the bible and your current argument. Since slavery in the bible was state sanctioned ownership of people and the laws regarding the slavery which the bible refers to provided legal recognition of that ownership, in order for your argument to be successful, you either need to show that the legal recognition of slavery is not a significant difference, or that our society depends upon the legal and state recognition of ownership of people. As far as I'm aware, there is no state in the world which legally recognizes the ownership of persons. So, then, failing that, you need to show that there are not relevant differences between what you are referring to as slavery and that which the bible refers to as slavery. The further you get away from the biblical notion of slavery, the less credible your argument. You seem engaged in nothing more than an extended example of equivocation.

Regardless, your argument is a response to the argument that the God portrayed in the bible is immoral because he allowed and condoned slavery. You haven't shown that slavery is necessary to a society, so all you have is the suggestion that slavery in toto is not itself immoral. That modern societies to some extent tolerate lesser forms of slavery is not in and of itself an argument that slavery in any form is not immoral. That simply doesn't follow. In practical terms, it comes down to what you are defining as slavery, as I keep emphasizing. In so much as slavery is forced servitude perpetuated by state sanctioned violence, most societies condemn it. In so much as slavery is nothing more than economic exploitation, what is referred to in the bible is not what you are referring to in your argument. If you are equivocating on your main term, your argument necessarily fails as you are using the same word in multiple ways as if you were using it in the same way throughout.

[Drich]

But here's the thing... here is where it is not black or white/ Slavery is not always bad m'kay, slavery is not always bad...

I disagree absolutely.  No exceptions.  Slavery is always bad.  It is our responsibility as a civilization to work towards ending the exploitation of all sentient beings, human and non-human.  It may take us a thousand years or more, but we have to keep trying to reduce others' burden of pain.

So what happens to the slaves once you and your self righteous western 'morality' takes away the only jobs the only way to feed themselves and their families? 

lets say there are 50 million people who fit this definition spread across the world.  meaning 50 million active slaves not including non participating members of their family who benefit from the slave's work in one form or another...

Here's the thing.. slavery itself is not bad. It is the exploitation of a slave that is. Joseph in the bible is a great example of how well a slave could be taken care of. In that he was sold to pharaoh and rose in the ranks to become the number 2 man in all of egypt. it was said that when pharaoh got old Joseph became acting pharaoh meaning no one lived better in the whole kingdom. He was the equal to the king in every way. however when it came down to it he still answered to the pharaoh.. meaning in his slavery he far exceeded in wealth and personal freedom over and above anyone else in kingdom, but because his will was first subject to the pharaoh, he was still a slave, even though in his slavery he exceeded the wealth power and freedom of any 'free man.'

that said not ever slave is or can be king, but we can acknowledge our dependance on slavery and make sure while wages must remain low that other low to no cost things that are needed for everyday life are met.

[Minimalist]

Poor dripshit, the world is so unkind to him.

[The Grand Nudger]

Christian moral character and the advocacy of slavery go hand in hand, it seems, lol. Folks like this are the bottom of the christer barrel. Hell, this one thinks that his slavery loving christianity is somehow -not- a part of western "morality"

Scare quotes and all.

that said not ever slave is or can be king, but we can acknowledge our dependance on slavery and make sure while wages must remain low that other low to no cost things that are needed for everyday life are met.

oooooh...ooooh..like low priced human chattel! Two for one on slaves at the walmart every thursday?