Civility

[Belacqua]

I've been struck by the fact that some users of the forum felt the desire to request a section in which civility is a requirement. And I've been surprised by the discussions in the Announcement section about whether this is good or not. 

Maybe it would be interesting to hear about why we think civility is a good thing to aim for. Some are saying it's a way for bad people to avoid getting the scoldings they deserve. For me, though, I think it is worth taking that risk. 

Here are a few of reasons why:

1) Although we may disagree to a greater or lesser extent, most of us actually want to aim for the truth. In this, we are friends. Blake said, "Opposition is true Friendship." And dialogue at its best is dialectic which moves us toward better thinking, on a personal level. 

2) No doubt there are people who deserve to be scolded, perhaps punched in the face, even made to shut up entirely. But this is a not-very-famous chat room. So despite having said #1 above, I don't think we have the power to change much at all. If we are actually in fear for the country, we'd better leave this site and go to the school board meeting. Insulting our interlocutors here won't help. 

3) Insults shut down discussion, they don't accomplish anything but a tiny personal catharsis. In general, they dumb things down.

4) I have been known to get angry on line and fly off the handle. But it would be better for me to practice my shutting-up skills instead.

Any additional ideas? Or am I wrong (please be kind)?

[Catholic_Lady]

I agree with your 4 points for sure.

I see a productive discussion as one where both sides listen to each other and share their views, so that both come away with better understanding of the other's views as well as maybe even learning a little more about their own. And who knows... perhaps even find some common ground. It promotes self growth and understanding.

A discussion is always more productive when it is civil... without the distraction and deflection of crap posts, personal insults, and mockery to have to sift through.

I think this section is doing really well so far.

[Whateverist]

No complaints here. Of course I've only found a couple of interesting threads so far. I'm avoiding all the politics threads. I haven't thought of any threads I wanted to make myself in this sub-forum yet but I'm sure something will come up.

This one is a little self-referential for my taste but hey I want to support the effort. So here I am.

[Belacqua]

I agree with your 4 points for sure.

I see a productive discussion as one where both sides listen to each other and share their views, so that both come away with better understanding of the other's views as well as maybe even learning a little more about their own. And who knows... perhaps even find some common ground. It promotes self growth and understanding.

A discussion is always more productive when it is civil... without the distraction and deflection of crap posts, personal insults, and mockery to have to sift through.

I think this section is doing really well so far.

I think so too.

It will be interesting to see how things go -- if there will be a niche for this kind of thing. Maybe by ghettoizing the courteous people the rest of the forum will descend into constant F-bombs. Or maybe things will go well here, and the usual insulters will tone things down in order to take part. 

Anyway, I think it's a worthy experiment.

---

No complaints here.  Of course I've only found a couple of interesting threads so far.  I'm avoiding all the politics threads.  I haven't thought of any threads I wanted to make myself in this sub-forum yet but I'm sure something will come up.  

This one is a little self-referential for my taste but hey I want to support the effort.  So here I am.

Thank you for lending moral support. 

I agree that if we just use this forum to talk about the forum it's a little too meta. 

But I also think that civility is a serious issue in the world. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think civility has come to be looked down on -- something people want to get away from. 

For example, I think that a lot of Americans associate vulgarity with sincerity. People who swear and insult are thought to be "real," while those who are careful and courteous are dismissed as old-maidish or prigs. It looks to me as if the old idea that we vote for the President we'd like to have a beer with has degenerated even farther, into the notion that someone who speaks as if he's in a formal setting must be fake somehow. It's probably a part of good old American anti-intellectualism. 

(The only character in popular culture with high-level taste in the arts is Hannibal Lector.) 

I think that people voted for Trump because he's uncivil and vulgar. And I think those of us who oppose Trump shouldn't adopt his ways.

[John V]

3) Insults shut down discussion, they don't accomplish anything but a tiny personal catharsis. In general, they dumb things down.

This is the main reason for me. I enjoy good trash talking and I swear like a sailor (not proud of it, but it's true). But good trash talking goes along with the discussion. The incivility we've seen here lately is generally intended to shut down the discussion.

[Whateverist]

No complaints here.  Of course I've only found a couple of interesting threads so far.  I'm avoiding all the politics threads.  I haven't thought of any threads I wanted to make myself in this sub-forum yet but I'm sure something will come up.  

This one is a little self-referential for my taste but hey I want to support the effort.  So here I am.

Thank you for lending moral support. 

I agree that if we just use this forum to talk about the forum it's a little too meta. 

But I also think that civility is a serious issue in the world. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think civility has come to be looked down on -- something people want to get away from.

I don't think you are wrong. Civility allows people to understand differences and not just sort them into those with whom we agree and those with whom we don't. I find I've grown more and found out more about myself by challenging my initial judgment of others. I think being petty is a pretty easy place to wind up at if you don't make some effort.

For example, I think that a lot of Americans associate vulgarity with sincerity. People who swear and insult are thought to be "real," while those who are careful and courteous are dismissed as old-maidish or prigs. It looks to me as if the old idea that we vote for the President we'd like to have a beer with has degenerated even farther, into the notion that someone who speaks as if he's in a formal setting must be fake somehow. It's probably a part of good old American anti-intellectualism.

And we all know how well that (my bolded) has worked out. I think what is behind that impulse is a preference for authenticity. But an infant who becomes a toddler hasn't lost their authenticity, they've just developed. That dilemma shouldn't require an either/or solution.

Funny about intellectualism. When I was in high school I used to read William F. Buckley Jr. just for the cadence of his language and the breadth of his vocabulary. I think I was attracted to the complexity. But having studied philosophy a little I've really come to appreciate simplicity more. Only when we really understand a thing can we describe it simply, though of course some things just are complex.

(The only character in popular culture with high-level taste in the arts is Hannibal Lector.) 

I think that people voted for Trump because he's uncivil and vulgar. And I think those of us who oppose Trump shouldn't adopt his ways.

Hmmm. Serial murderer and psychopath .. or reality tv star and grifter? Tough choice.

I agree about the civility but am not as sure about the vulgarity. That is a matter of style and convention I think. Of course some vulgarity is just vile while it can also be a vehicle for humor and I appreciate that. Personally, I think levity can lighten civility and keep it from becoming ponderously solemn. But ultimately civility is about discovering what the other person needs to be at ease and open with you. One doesn't want to become a pretzel in order to accommodate another but neither should one insist too stridently on ones own social comfort.

I look forward to finding out more about you and what you think.

[A Theist]

I've been struck by the fact that some users of the forum felt the desire to request a section in which civility is a requirement. And I've been surprised by the discussions in the Announcement section about whether this is good or not. 

Maybe it would be interesting to hear about why we think civility is a good thing to aim for. Some are saying it's a way for bad people to avoid getting the scoldings they deserve. For me, though, I think it is worth taking that risk. 

Here are a few of reasons why:

1) Although we may disagree to a greater or lesser extent, most of us actually want to aim for the truth. In this, we are friends. Blake said, "Opposition is true Friendship." And dialogue at its best is dialectic which moves us toward better thinking, on a personal level. 

2) No doubt there are people who deserve to be scolded, perhaps punched in the face, even made to shut up entirely. But this is a not-very-famous chat room. So despite having said #1 above, I don't think we have the power to change much at all. If we are actually in fear for the country, we'd better leave this site and go to the school board meeting. Insulting our interlocutors here won't help. 

3) Insults shut down discussion, they don't accomplish anything but a tiny personal catharsis. In general, they dumb things down

4) I have been known to get angry on line and fly off the handle. But it would be better for me to practice my shutting-up skills instead.

Any additional ideas? Or am I wrong (please be kind)?

Number 3 pretty much sums up the purpose of the civility thread. It's easy to derail a discussion through insults. But with the stricter rules in place I believe the discussions here will be more challenging when you can only attack the argument rather than attacking the person who's making the argument. In this thread, you can only attack an argument with a counter argument, and evidence with counter evidence.

[The Grand Nudger]

I actually don't think that it's a good thing to aim for.  Honesty should be aimed for, and sometimes..there's nothing civil about honesty.  There is generally little to do with honesty when it comes to asking for civility, for that matter.  Deference would be a better word for what many seek in requesting it.

[Belacqua]

There is generally little to do with honesty when it comes to asking for civility, for that matter.

I'm pretty sure (if I'm reading my own feelings accurately) that when I ask for civility I'm not asking to abandon honesty. 

I want to hear: "I disagree with you for these three reasons:_____" and not, "Go and die you [edited to read: unpleasant dolt]." I wouldn't even call the latter response honest -- just a kind of phatic burst.

[RoadRunner79]

There is generally little to do with honesty when it comes to asking for civility, for that matter.

I'm pretty sure (if I'm reading my own feelings accurately) that when I ask for civility I'm not asking to abandon honesty. 

I want to hear: "I disagree with you for these three reasons:_____" and not, "Go and die you motherfucker." I wouldn't even call the latter response honest -- just a kind of phatic burst.

I very much agree with you here.    

Just a note, but I think that swearing was part of the rules of the section.   I don't necessarily agree with it, particularly because of the context in a case like this, as opposed to one in your latter example.