Assuming a Gender Identity

[Acrobat]

Why would you use the non-binary card? From what you have said in this discussion, you are not non-binary. If you are going to co-opt a card that isn't your card, you are introducing an insincere element to our attempt to iron out evolving rules about gender spaces.

From what I understand non-binary means that you don’t exclusively identify with the traditional identity markers of either gender, but either neither or some combination of both. With this understanding in mind, I consider myself more non-binary, than someone who might fall into the cisgender male category.

I don’t believe much else is required to identify as non-binary than this, but I’m open to being corrected.

So I don’t think I’m being inauthentic when I say I’m non-binary. But that my issue with not being able to be in the lady’s fitting room, is not because I am non-binary, but because I wanted to help my wife.

The fact that I have to be reduced using to my non-binary status, to get around what I deem as ridiculous prohibitions based on old prejudices and stereotypes, is just the way things are.

[Yonadav]

OK, but you say that the reason that you want to go into the women's changing room is to help your wife, and not because of your non-binary identity. So you should just be honest about your reasons. I see no problem with a What's the Big Deal? argument. You're helping your wife. You're not some creepy guy hanging out in the women's changing room.

[Acrobat]

OK, but you say that the reason that you want to go into the women's changing room is to help your wife, and not because of your non-binary identity. So you should just be honest about your reasons. I see no problem with a What's the Big Deal? argument. You're helping your wife. You're not some creepy guy hanging out in the women's changing room.

If I was in the same situation again, and they asked me to leave the fitting room, I would ask why?

And if the answer is something along the lines of cisgender men are not allowed in female designated changing rooms, then I’d indicate I’m not cisgender.

If my non-binary status gives me the right to be in there, I see no need to have to explain myself any further.

They underlying reason why I’m not allowed in there is based on an assumption of my gender idenitity, so I see no reason to make the argument about something other than this basis.

I have to use the non-binary card, because I’m being forced to, based on a false assumption that I’m cisgender.

[Yonadav]

OK, but you say that the reason that you want to go into the women's changing room is to help your wife, and not because of your non-binary identity. So you should just be honest about your reasons. I see no problem with a What's the Big Deal? argument. You're helping your wife. You're not some creepy guy hanging out in the women's changing room.

If I was in the same situation again, and they asked me to leave the fitting room, I would ask why?

And if the answer is something along the lines of cisgender men are not allowed in female designated changing rooms, then I’d indicate I’m not cisgender.

If my non-binary status gives me the right to be in there, I see no need to have to explain myself any further.

They underlying reason why I’m not allowed in there is based on an assumption of my gender idenitity, so I see no reason to make the argument about something other than this basis.

I have to use the non-binary card, because I’m being forced to, based on a false assumption that I’m cisgender.

Fair enough.

[EgoDeath]

Listen...

It is a very, very small part of the population that identifies as transgender. Almost everyone simply sees themselves as a man or a woman and has no issue with that self-perception, and no issue with someone assuming which gender they are, since they're clearly, by dress, hairstyle, body shape and a number of other factors, telling the world, "I am a man," or "I am a woman." This is the standard way in which the world operates. Period.

That's not to say we can't take steps to be more sensitive to trans people and the issues they face in life, because we can and should do that; there's nothing wrong with someone being trans and as we progress in our society it's not that there will be nothing wrong with being trans, it will simply be accepted as being another type of person. As it should be.

However, the idea of taking this attitude that only applies to less than 1% of the population and applying to each and every person you come across JUST IN CASE they might be trans is completely ridiculous. You can look at a man and know you're looking at a man. You can look at a woman and know you're looking at a woman. Period. If you're saying you can't, then you must be incredibly stupid.

Guess what? If I come across someone and say, "Excuse me, sir, I'm trying to reach something on this shelf here, can you move?" and that person replies, "Actually, it's ma'am, I'm a woman." I would simply say, "Oh, so sorry ma'am, can you excuse my reach?" There. That's it. No one was hurt. No one was discriminated against. Just a simple misunderstanding where all I had to do was change one word, and abracadabra! I'm now being sensitive to that persons wants/needs, while also getting them to, politely, move out of my way. No big deal.

It's not my job to constantly judge whether or not someone is a woman or a man, because most people simply present themselves as what they are, it's something we pick up on intuitively with no conscious thought, and if our intuition is wrong, it takes very little effort to be sensitive to someone's needs by calling them ma'am or miss instead of sir. It's really no huge deal. It sounds to me like YOU'RE the one being judgemental and constantly analyzing people. I, for whatever reason, don't feel the need to do that, I simply take people for who they are.

I'm not going to go around avoiding using the word "flower" because let's say .0001% of the population has an irrational fear of flowers.

The basic rule of life; just show people respect. That's it. Doesn't need to be more complicated than that. If people don't show you respect, don't deal with those people and don't bother putting any effort into respecting them. It's honestly easy. We all have our own minds and emotions to manage and we can't let other people's actions run our lives. Outside of being physically assaulted, there's not really much someone can do to me to sour my mood. We all gotta' manage our tempers like the adults that we are. Stop looking for shit to be upset about. Grow up.

[Homeless Nutter]

It’s outside of cisnormality, aspects associated traditionally with one gender over the other, the fact that I share a combination of these aspects among both genders, is why I identify as non-binary.

I also feel more comfortable with woman then men, I enjoy cooking like my female friends do, romantic comedies, fashion, aesthetics, being open about my feelings, being nurturing to my children,  aspects often associsted with traditional female gender roles, while at the same time enjoy being assertive, the roughy rugged look, toughness, aggression, facial hair, etc.. associated with the traditional male identify.

Wow... Don't you sound like an insufferable narcissistic twit...


I guess I must be non-binary as well. I never cared much for sports, or cars, I enjoy cooking so much I do it for a living, I'm most comfortable around women - especially when f*cking, I don't own a couch, or a TV, I don't like beer and I throw away my underpants, when they have holes in them. At the same time - I have facial hair, I look very "roughy", and I'm assertive enough fart loudly, ot to call people out on their bullsh*t.

So, what do I do now? Do I need a new passport? Do I have to update my Tinder profile. Do I get to use whichever bathroom I like? Does that include toilets for the disabled, or do I have to be non-bipedal for that?...

[Acrobat]

It’s outside of cisnormality, aspects associated traditionally with one gender over the other, the fact that I share a combination of these aspects among both genders, is why I identify as non-binary.

I also feel more comfortable with woman then men, I enjoy cooking like my female friends do, romantic comedies, fashion, aesthetics, being open about my feelings, being nurturing to my children,  aspects often associsted with traditional female gender roles, while at the same time enjoy being assertive, the roughy rugged look, toughness, aggression, facial hair, etc.. associated with the traditional male identify.

Wow... Don't you sound like an insufferable narcissistic twit...


I guess I must be non-binary as well. I never cared much for sports, or cars, I enjoy cooking so much I do it for a living, I'm most comfortable around women - especially when f*cking, I don't own a couch, or a TV, I don't like beer and I throw away my underpants, when they have holes in them. At the same time - I have facial hair, I look very "roughy", and I'm assertive enough fart loudly, ot to call people out on their bullsh*t.

So, what do I do now? Do I need a new passport? Do I have to update my Tinder profile. Do I get to use whichever bathroom I like? Does that include toilets for the disabled, or do I have to be non-bipedal for that?...

I admit cisgender vs non-binary, are new terms for me, that I’ve only heard of a few years ago. I’ve only recently started contemplating which category I might fall into.

The definition seems to be, a person who doesn’t exclusively share the traditional gender identity markers, of one gender only.

I think I fall under this definition, when contemplating what those particular traditional identity traits are.

But it’s possible I’m not understanding it properly, am misusing the label, if so I’m open to being corrected, if someone can educate me on why I’m wrong, why I should be classified as cisgender as opposed to non-binary.

[I_am_not_mafia]

Non-binary is a very loose term that basically means nothing by itself.

Cisgendered is used in contrast to transgendered. i.e. your biological sex matches your gender identity.

Question. Are you intersex?

Are you biologically a mix of genders? Maybe chromosomes don't match your genitals, or your genitals haven't fully developed etc.

If not then can you say that you are biologically male?

Assuming that this is the case, then the next question is, are you transgendered? This isn't an easy question and the answer might change over time as you become more aware of yourself. Or as you realise that you are in denial about being transgendered.

From what you say, it doesn't sound like you are.

But like with everything, there is a continuum. So maybe your gender identity is more towards the middle than the male or female extremes. And assuming that you are not intersex, you can exist as, function as and present yourself as a cisgendered man and it's not causing you undue suffering (correct me if I am wrong here).

Be aware that gender is not how it presented as in society. You can still identify as a man without having to like football, in the same way not liking shopping and make-up doesn't mean that you are not a woman. You can still be a woman without wearing a hijab and being subjected to female genital mutilation. Same way that you can love men and still be a man despite living in a culture that sees homosexuality as an aberration.

So you might not identify with the demands placed on your gender by your culture, but do you relate to other people of your same biological sex? Do you think and act in the same way?

Lots of men prefer the company of women. That doesn't mean to say that they have the same innate values, drives or mentality though. Only you can determine if you identify as male or female or as neither.

These are not easy questions when you are the one living your life. You can't expect a complete stranger to know.

[Acrobat]

Question. Are you intersex?

No.

If not then can you say that you are biologically male?

Yes, I am biologically male. I am not transgender either.

So maybe your gender identity is more towards the middle than the male or female extremes. And assuming that you are not intersex, you can exist as, function as and present yourself as a cisgendered man and it's not causing you undue suffering (correct me if I am wrong here).

I don’t particularly suffer being treated as a cisgender male, other than some small annoyances, such as not being allowed in non-binary permitted fitting rooms, or when taking my daughter to her dr. appointments, that it’s because my wife couldn’t, or being treated as secondary in raising her in these situations. I prefer to be called He. I also see myself as the head of the household, which both me and my wife prefer, as the protector, disciplinarian, etc.. or in other words a more traditional patriarchal position with in the family dynamic.

So you might not identify with the demands placed on your gender by your culture, but do you relate to other people of your same biological sex? Do you think and act in the same way? Lots of men prefer the company of women. That doesn't mean to say that they have the same innate values, drives or mentality though. Only you can determine if you identify as male or female or as neither.

These are not easy questions when you are the one living your life. You can't expect a complete stranger to know.

I think i relate to both, and think and act in ways relating to both, i share values commonly associated with both genders, have drives and a mentality commonality associated with both genders.

When I think of the question. I think out a list of all the traditional identifications of male and female gender roles and identify, on this list maybe I’m 60/40 Male/Female. And my list probably sounds crude, but I don’t know another one I can appeal to that maps out the various aspects of the male/female identity dichotomy.

So on my list, cooking, kitchen upkeep, washing dishes, being the primacy care taker of my daughter, preference for aesthetics, a disinterest in watching sports, openness in discussing ones feelings and inner life, comfortability with females more than males, etc… All fall into the traditional female identity, as opposed to the traditional male identity.

I take on a variety of traditional female roles, that are embedded into my sense of personal identify. Perhaps some people will be offended that I openly associate these elements with females rather than males, but again I’m only referring to the traditional markers, not to how these things might differ in our modern politically correct interpretations of what these elements mean.

Perhaps it would be easier if we had some agreed up definitions and criteria as to what elements fall into the traditional male/female dichotomy, or else I think my distinctions are accurate.

[LadyForCamus]

So, is my husband non-binary now because he likes rom-coms, talks about his feelings, and doesn’t know shit about cars? I feel like you’re setting the bar really low.