Assuming a Gender Identity

[Acrobat]

I haven't heard of any trans people ever demanding that people should somehow know their gender identity when they don't at least try presenting themselves in a way that is consistent with it. Sounds like a strawman argument from the OP.

Im arguing as a non-binary, that we shouldn’t be compelled to share our gender identity or sexual orientation, same way we’d find it inappropriate for someone to ask a transgender person what gender they identify with, it’s none of their buisness.

The fact that we all don’t dress the same way, or wear makeup, etc is a poor justification for it.

[Aliza]

So rather than embrace and celebrate the tolerance gained for the trans community in recent years, you're going to bash people for failing to meet your personal expectations? Okay, I guess that's how consumerism works. You can choose not to shop at that store again.

Social change isn't typically sudden, though, no matter how right you think you are. Things get nudged in the right direction, not shoved. The shoving method may result in a nasty backlash that sets the cause off course for years or decades. Maybe even longer. Not worth it to me. Stay the course and be polite and firm in your resolve. Give courteous responses that ask people to quietly question their own biases.

[The Grand Nudger]

You aren't being compelled to share anything. You make it their business, however, when selecting a restroom.  You're the initiating party in this hypothetical.not the poor fucker who has to deal with you, lol. If you don't want to divulge something, then don't? You're not going to be able to so much as walk into a bathroom without doing so, however.

[Homeless Nutter]

I believe I identify as non-binary, because there are certain aspects of traditional male/female identical, which I share, and don’t share with each, such as a disinterest in sports, a interest in aesthetics, open to discussing my feelings, over stoicism, enjoying cooking, etc.

That doesn't sound like a description of a non-binary person. More like - a hipster.

[Acrobat]

So rather than embrace and celebrate the tolerance gained for the trans community in recent years, you're going to bash phone eople for failing to meet your personal expectations? Okay, I guess that's how consumerism works. You can choose not to shop at that store again.

Social change isn't typically sudden, though, no matter how right you think you are. Things get nudged in the right direction, not shoved. The shoving method may result in a nasty backlash that sets the cause off course for years or decades. Maybe even longer. Not worth it to me. Stay the course and be polite and firm in your resolve. Give courteous responses that ask people to quietly question their own biases.

No, I took part in social change. I called the department store, spoke with the manager, and they indicated they would educate their staff.

If it happens again, I’d indicate I’m non-binary, and speak with the manager if it’s still an issue. Though I feel I shouldn’t have to, and it’s no ones buisness. I shouldn’t have to jump through additional hurdles those those on other parts of the gender spectrum shouldn’t be subject to.

But I’m more welcoming of confrontation than others, particularly if I feel I’ve been wronged, while others would walk okay being hurt by it, but never trying to correct the wrong.

[arewethereyet]

Well, the important thing is that your feels were wounded. Luckily you probably got someone reprimanded, if not fired, for not reading your non-binaryness correctly. Good for you...hold your head high.

[Acrobat]

I believe I identify as non-binary, because there are certain aspects of traditional male/female identical, which I share, and don’t share with each, such as a disinterest in sports, a interest in aesthetics, open to discussing my feelings, over stoicism, enjoying cooking, etc.

That doesn't sound like a description of a non-binary person. More like - a hipster.

It’s outside of cisnormality, aspects associated traditionally with one gender over the other, the fact that I share a combination of these aspects among both genders, is why I identify as non-binary.

I also feel more comfortable with woman then men, I enjoy cooking like my female friends do, romantic comedies, fashion, aesthetics, being open about my feelings, being nurturing to my children, aspects often associsted with traditional female gender roles, while at the same time enjoy being assertive, the roughy rugged look, toughness, aggression, facial hair, etc.. associated with the traditional male identify.

---

Well, the important thing is that your feels were wounded. Luckily you probably got someone reprimanded, if not fired, for not reading your non-binaryness correctly. Good for you...hold your head high.

No I didn’t share any specifics about the incident, hopefully with some education this won’t happen to me again here. I was understanding that these type of things occasionally happen, because employees aren’t properly trained.

Though I’ll add she was very rude and curt, and shouldn’t be working at a high end department store, luckily I’m not that petty to want her fired.

---

Out of curiosity, it seems people here are okay with us non-binary people using which ever room we feel comfortable with, but it does seem there is still an issue with cisgender, particularly cisgender men on using female facilities?

Why? Is it primarily because youre worried about safety concerns?

[Yonadav]

The other day my wife was trying on clothes at a department store fitting room, and she wanted my opinion.

The sales person had come up to me and said: “You are not allowed in here”, because men are not allowed in the fitting room.

Oddly the dept store chain has indicated that they don’t discriminate against people’s gender identities, that people are able to use the fitting rooms of the gender they identify as.

At the same time it seems terribly inappropriate for fitting room staff/etc. to ask a person what gender they identify as, whether I’m a cisgender male, non-binary, transgender, etc..

I should be able to enter which ever fitting room I want to, without being questioned, or having my gender assumed, and it seems to me that it’s discrimination otherwise.

The argument seems to primarily be one where you should be able to use the rest room/ fitting room/ changing room of the gender you identify with, when it seems to be that the argument should be for unisex, genderless rooms.

thoughts?

As a trans person, I am not offended by your question.  You've been sincere and polite, and you are just asking some questions about the finer points of new social rules that haven't been completely ironed out yet.   

One person said that it is not offensive to mistake someone's gender. I agree with them.

You do identify as a man and the clerk identified your gender correctly. So there wasn't anything about that which should have been offensive to you. You said that the store's rules are that a person can use the dressing room that they are most comfortable with. You were in the women's room, which wasn't the dressing room that you were most comfortable with. Yes, you could claim that you like to dress like a man but are more comfortable in the women's room, but that wouldn't be honest would it?  The clerk didn't ask you about your gender identity. They just assumed it by the way you present yourself, and they got it right. The assumption that you were not someone who likes to present yourself as a man, but is more comfortable in the women's room was a reasonable assumption.

[Acrobat]

The other day my wife was trying on clothes at a department store fitting room, and she wanted my opinion.

The sales person had come up to me and said: “You are not allowed in here”, because men are not allowed in the fitting room.

Oddly the dept store chain has indicated that they don’t discriminate against people’s gender identities, that people are able to use the fitting rooms of the gender they identify as.

At the same time it seems terribly inappropriate for fitting room staff/etc. to ask a person what gender they identify as, whether I’m a cisgender male, non-binary, transgender, etc..

I should be able to enter which ever fitting room I want to, without being questioned, or having my gender assumed, and it seems to me that it’s discrimination otherwise.

The argument seems to primarily be one where you should be able to use the rest room/ fitting room/ changing room of the gender you identify with, when it seems to be that the argument should be for unisex, genderless rooms.

thoughts?

As a trans person, I am not offended by your question.  You've been sincere and polite, and you are just asking some questions about the finer points of new social rules that haven't been completely ironed out yet.   

One person said that it is not offensive to mistake someone's gender. I agree with them.

You do identify as a man and the clerk identified your gender correctly. So there wasn't anything about that which should have been offensive to you. You said that the store's rules are that a person can use the dressing room that they are most comfortable with. You were in the women's room, which wasn't the dressing room that you were most comfortable with. Yes, you could claim that you like to dress like a man but are more comfortable in the women's room, but that wouldn't be honest would it?  The clerk didn't ask you about your gender identity. They just assumed it by the way you present yourself, and they got it right. The assumption that you were not someone who likes to present yourself as a man, but is more comfortable in the women's room was a reasonable assumption.

I’d admit I was more offended by being kicked out of the dressing room, regardless of what gender I identify most closely with, than because I consider myself non-binary. I would have been equally annoyed by it, if I classified myself as cisgender.

Going forward I would use the non-binary card, to avoid rudely being kicked out of the fitting room, while helping my wife decide on what to buy.

I was more offended by the idea of someone considering my presence in the room to be threatening, or whatever negative associations being implied by my presence there, that they felt I should be kicked out, than anything else.

I understand that in some way I’m using privileges that the lgbtq community have fought hard for, for the benefit of my own conveniences, but I don’t see why the same privileges shouldn’t be extended to me.

I don’t think the argument that some women might be uncomfortable with someone that looks like me in the fitting room, anymore valid than when similar arguments are used by opponents of trans inclusive facilities.

[Yonadav]

As a trans person, I am not offended by your question.  You've been sincere and polite, and you are just asking some questions about the finer points of new social rules that haven't been completely ironed out yet.   

One person said that it is not offensive to mistake someone's gender. I agree with them.

You do identify as a man and the clerk identified your gender correctly. So there wasn't anything about that which should have been offensive to you. You said that the store's rules are that a person can use the dressing room that they are most comfortable with. You were in the women's room, which wasn't the dressing room that you were most comfortable with. Yes, you could claim that you like to dress like a man but are more comfortable in the women's room, but that wouldn't be honest would it?  The clerk didn't ask you about your gender identity. They just assumed it by the way you present yourself, and they got it right. The assumption that you were not someone who likes to present yourself as a man, but is more comfortable in the women's room was a reasonable assumption.

I’d admit I was more offended by being kicked out of the dressing room, regardless of what gender I identify most closely with, than because I consider myself non-binary. I would have been equally annoyed by it, if I classified myself as cisgender.

Going forward I would use the non-binary card, to avoid rudely being kicked out of the fitting room, while helping my wife decide on what to buy.

I was more offended by the idea of someone considering my presence in the room to be threatening, or whatever negative associations being implied by my presence there, that they felt I should be kicked out, than anything else.

I understand that in some way I’m using privileges that the lgbtq community have fought hard for, for the benefit of my own conveniences, but I don’t see why the same privileges shouldn’t be extended to me.

I don’t think the argument that some women might be uncomfortable with someone that looks like me in the fitting room, anymore valid than when similar arguments are used by opponents of trans inclusive facilities.

Why would you use the non-binary card? From what you have said in this discussion, you are not non-binary. If you are going to co-opt a card that isn't your card, you are introducing an insincere element to our attempt to iron out evolving rules about gender spaces.

If you believe that we should just get rid of men's rooms and women's rooms and just have unisex rooms, then you should just argue that perspective instead of co-opting the non-binary card. Perhaps non-binary people are dealing with real non-binary issues that they don't want you co-opting for your own purposes.