Nature comes first

[fredd bear]

For those that argue intelligent design using the phrases "For every painting there is a painter or for every building there is a builder", please remember that all of those raw materials were here first before we were.

Nature comes first before any designer.
And every designer is made of natural materials that were here longer before the designer stepped on the scene.

Just a little something to think about before you make arguments that don't hold water.

I think you're kind of ignoring the essential philosophical paradox there.

Where did the natural materials come from?  More nature?  Is it turtles, all the way down?  How?

@bennyboy:

 Your argument is also called "The 'watchmaker argument" . This an argument used by theists  to 'prove'e intelligent design . In another guise, it becomes 'irreducible complexity.'  It's simply incorrect.

The article linked below is too long to post here, but I recommend it to those with an open mind. I exclude apologists from that group.
.
There is a HUGE amount of information online about this particular argument if you are unconvinced by the article.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-a-s...30878.html

[Gawdzilla Sama]

At work.


Hello!

So.... uhm.....what question(s) not being asked might such be?

Cheerz!

Does anything exist beyond nature?  How did the stuff of the universe come about?  Or did it exist from infinity? Can we know of a supernatural existence through the scientific method, which doesn't have the capacity to determine that?

I like your pretend. But you need to up your game here if you want to be a poe.

[Lek]

Good examples of how atheists deal with these questions. That's one reason I'm not an atheist.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

When have you, a believer, ever dealt with anything. Your imaginary friend has the load there.

[Peebothuhlu]

At work.

Good examples of how atheists deal with these questions. That's one reason I'm not an atheist.

" ? "


Wha tha who now?

Okay...... tugger me confuzzled.....

[Gawdzilla Sama]

At work.

Good examples of how atheists deal with these questions.  That's one reason I'm not an atheist.

     "   ?    "


Wha tha who now?

Okay...... tugger me confuzzled.....

That would be any response that's too hard to fit into his bitty universe.

[Rahn127]

For those that argue intelligent design using the phrases "For every painting there is a painter or for every building there is a builder", please remember that all of those raw materials were here first before we were.

Nature comes first before any designer.
And every designer is made of natural materials that were here longer before the designer stepped on the scene.

Just a little something to think about before you make arguments that don't hold water.

Where did nature come from?  Your argument doesn't hold water either.

First we acknowledge that the universe exists.

From our observations of galaxies we see that most everything is moving away from us. There is also some expansion going on as well that contributes to this effect. The further away something is, the faster it is moving away from us.

As we turn back the hands of time, we see a universe where there are no galaxies, no stars, no matter, only energy.

You ask where nature comes from.
It comes from the existing energy of the universe.

The energy of the universe exists.
How would you get rid of it ?
Where would it go ?

[Lek]

Where did nature come from?  Your argument doesn't hold water either.

First we acknowledge that the universe exists.

From our observations of galaxies we see that most everything is moving away from us. There is also some expansion going on as well that contributes to this effect. The further away something is, the faster it is moving away from us.

As we turn back the hands of time, we see a universe where there are no galaxies, no stars, no matter, only energy.

You ask where nature comes from.
It comes from the existing energy of the universe.

The energy of the universe exists.
How would you get rid of it ?
Where would it go ?

So I guess you're saying that the energy of the universe always existed without a beginning and it created the universe.

[Peebothuhlu]

At work.

So I guess you're saying that the energy of the universe always existed without a beginning and it created the universe.

I think a finer point/term would be that "We can wind the clock back untill we get to a place where there is nothing but energy.

A state of 'Being' such that even fundamental particals cannot exist because there is simply too much energy. Note that things such as 'Time' and 'Space' didn't quite exist as we know it today, either.

It's the "Well..... what came before that....?" which is the "We don't know yet, but we're looking/thinking/poking about it." reply come in/from.

[Yonadav]

Where did nature come from?  Your argument doesn't hold water either.

First we acknowledge that the universe exists.

From our observations of galaxies we see that most everything is moving away from us. There is also some expansion going on as well that contributes to this effect. The further away something is, the faster it is moving away from us.

As we turn back the hands of time, we see a universe where there are no galaxies, no stars, no matter, only energy.

You ask where nature comes from.
It comes from the existing energy of the universe.

The energy of the universe exists.
How would you get rid of it ?
Where would it go ?

That's some pretty unsatisfying rhetoric. I'm not one of those guys that tries to prove the existence of a deity.  But you really do sound like you are trying to convince yourself. You're committing imagination assassination. It's OK to be perplexed by the origin of the universe. It's mandatory, actually. At least if you are interested in science. Don't make secular scripture out of it, dude. We're all looking at the same mystery. Some see a will at work in it. Others don't. Anyone who is unmystified is either faking it or a dullard.