Nature comes first

[Lek]

We're going back before time and nature. This is where the limitations of science are recognized.

[Rahn127]

First we acknowledge that the universe exists.

From our observations of galaxies we see that most everything is moving away from us. There is also some expansion going on as well that contributes to this effect. The further away something is, the faster it is moving away from us.

As we turn back the hands of time, we see a universe where there are no galaxies, no stars, no matter, only energy.

You ask where nature comes from.
It comes from the existing energy of the universe.

The energy of the universe exists.
How would you get rid of it ?
Where would it go ?

So I guess you're saying that the energy of the universe always existed without a beginning and it created the universe.

I'm saying the energy of the universe exists. As we go forward in time from the big bang, we have expansion, then the formation of subatomic particles, and later simple atoms. Giant clouds (mostly hydrogen, with some helium and lithium) formed early stars and galaxies.

Our universe is unstable and instability seems to be part of nature.
If the energy of the universe remained stable, we wouldn't have a universe.

So we have energy in an unstable environment. Think of it like a jack in the box. You turn the crank and each time you turn everything seems stable.
And then you repeat the exact same thing you just did (turning the crank) and instead of doing nothing, it goes BOOM !!!

Nature has a way of doing that. Imagine how a star forms. Giant clouds of hydrogen form under gravity and draw closer to one another.
More and more and more hydrogen gather together. And it doesn't remain stable does it. It heats up. It changes. It begins to burst out and engulf itself into an explosion of heat and light, becoming a star.

No person or being or god is required. It's just gravity and hydrogen. And a star is born.

So yes, I would say that the energy of the universe has always been.
If it exists now, then it exists in every moment of time.

[The Valkyrie]

Of course nature comes first.

Nature is selfish and cares nothing for those it screws.

[Lek]

So I guess you're saying that the energy of the universe always existed without a beginning and it created the universe.

I'm saying the energy of the universe exists. As we go forward in time from the big bang, we have expansion, then the formation of subatomic particles, and later simple atoms. Giant clouds  (mostly hydrogen, with some helium and lithium) formed early stars and galaxies.

Our universe is unstable and instability seems to be part of nature.
If the energy of the universe remained stable, we wouldn't have a universe.

So we have energy in an unstable environment. Think of it like a jack in the box. You turn the crank and each time you turn everything seems stable.
And then you repeat the exact same thing you just did (turning the crank) and instead of doing nothing, it goes BOOM !!!

Nature has a way of doing that. Imagine how a star forms. Giant clouds of hydrogen form under gravity and draw closer to one another.
More and more and more hydrogen gather together. And it doesn't remain stable does it. It heats up. It changes. It begins to burst out and engulf itself into an explosion of heat and light, becoming a star.

No person or being or god is required. It's just gravity and hydrogen. And a star is born.

So yes, I would say that the energy of the universe has always been.
If it exists now, then it exists in every moment of time.

Seems like your energy and my God share some common characteristics.  They both were never created and always existed.  The universe came from your energy and my God and we really can't scientifically prove where either the energy of the universe or God came from, but we both believe our versions.

[Rahn127]

I'm saying the energy of the universe exists. As we go forward in time from the big bang, we have expansion, then the formation of subatomic particles, and later simple atoms. Giant clouds  (mostly hydrogen, with some helium and lithium) formed early stars and galaxies.

Our universe is unstable and instability seems to be part of nature.
If the energy of the universe remained stable, we wouldn't have a universe.

So we have energy in an unstable environment. Think of it like a jack in the box. You turn the crank and each time you turn everything seems stable.
And then you repeat the exact same thing you just did (turning the crank) and instead of doing nothing, it goes BOOM !!!

Nature has a way of doing that. Imagine how a star forms. Giant clouds of hydrogen form under gravity and draw closer to one another.
More and more and more hydrogen gather together. And it doesn't remain stable does it. It heats up. It changes. It begins to burst out and engulf itself into an explosion of heat and light, becoming a star.

No person or being or god is required. It's just gravity and hydrogen. And a star is born.

So yes, I would say that the energy of the universe has always been.
If it exists now, then it exists in every moment of time.

Seems like your energy and my God share some common characteristics.  They both were never created and always existed.  The universe came from your energy and my God and we really can't scientifically prove where either the energy of the universe or God came from, but we both believe our versions.

With one very large difference.
I have evidence that the energy of the universe exists.

Do you have any evidence that your god exists ?

[Lek]

Seems like your energy and my God share some common characteristics.  They both were never created and always existed.  The universe came from your energy and my God and we really can't scientifically prove where either the energy of the universe or God came from, but we both believe our versions.

With one very large difference.
I have evidence that the energy of the universe exists.

Do you have any evidence that your god exists ?

Do you know what your energy is made of?  Has it been gathered, tested and analyzed. It could be my God for all you know. What is that pure energy?

[GrandizerII]

With one very large difference.
I have evidence that the energy of the universe exists.

Do you have any evidence that your god exists ?

Do you know what your energy is made of?  Has it been gathered, tested and analyzed. It could be my God for all you know. What is that pure energy?

It's energy. Whether it's also your Bible God is something you will have to demonstrate.

[Peebothuhlu]

At work.

Do you know what your energy is made of?  Has it been harnessed,tested and analyzed. It could be my God for all you know. What is that pure energy?

"That energy" became everything we see, can see and can only infer (Dark matter/energy).

As for the testing of "That energy"? What might you think the large Hadron collider is trying to probe?

If your diety is 'Everything'... Then are you, parhps, a deist? Or a Panytheist? Even a Taoist? Or some other, similar 'Nature worshipper'?

[Lek]

At work.

Do you know what your energy is made of?  Has it been harnessed,tested and analyzed. It could be my God for all you know.  What is that pure energy?

"That energy" became everything we see, can see and can only infer (Dark matter/energy).

As for the testing of "That energy"? What might you think the large Hadron collider is trying to probe?

If your diety is 'Everything'... Then are you, parhps, a deist? Or a Panytheist? Or some other, similar 'Nature worshipper'?

No. I'm not any of those. What I'm saying is that you don't know what that "energy" is, but because of your limited worldview you automatically rule out that this energy could have created the universe rather than have become it. You exist in a box and will not wander beyond its boundaries.

[Fake Messiah]

How desperate of a believer do you have to be to cling to "what was before the universe was created" in order to "prove" your God? People that wrote the Bible (or any holy book) believed that supernatural beings were all around them: that they possess humans and cause illnesses, Paul believed he was seeing beings and people walking on clouds with heaven being divided in layers and Jesus was described as someone who had a popular belief of the time that the demons lived in the desert (Matthew 12:43) and therefore he went there to find the devil.

And now it's all about because people don't know yet for sure what happened before existence of the universe. Humans are not going to know everything, so will the theists just demand every time there is a gap in the knowledge that that is their God?