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Is Moral Nihilism a Morality?
#11
RE: Is Moral Nihilism a Morality?
(May 12, 2019 at 12:22 am)ignoramus Wrote: Could we gain any further insight as to how nature works by excluding ourselves from this proposal?
EG, in the animal kingdom?

I don't think so, Ig. Animals (much like humans) have social behavior patterns that resemble morality and/or nihilism. But (to me) moral behavior only includes actions done with a rationale. Animals work on instinct. Humans are rational beings. As such only humans can be moral or immoral. (Let me know if I missed the point of your question there.)

Quote:Does the laws of the universe automatically bind us to any sort of morality just because we are capable of thinking about it?

My answer is "no." Just because something is objectively true, doesn't mean you are "bound by the universe" to accept it. Sure

The thing about moral decisions is that they are each individual's choice to make. If there were some compulsory element (like say a promise or paradise and/or threat or eternal torment) then the moral dimension of a decision wanes, and, ultimately, the decision becomes one of self interest.

Therefore, if there were some binding force in the universe that bound all thinking beings to act morally that would similarly diminish the moral element of a choice.

(May 12, 2019 at 6:08 am)Gae Bolga Wrote: I suppose it would depend on the type of nihilism.  The differences between error theory and truth-aptness are profound.  I will say this, though...if we read will to power, we find an interesting notion played out even in little discussions like these.  While a nihilist might contend that the moral structures of our societies are meaningfully arbitrary, that morality as practiced is meaningfully arbitrary, it also carries the implication that this state of affairs deserves to be exposed.  

If that where the only implication of nihilism, it would be enough to qualify as a moral system with a limited scope.  Meta-ethical moralizing over moral systems.  

Yeah, I don't have any well-developed thinking on it, but the first thing I did was to ask myself, "What separates moral nihilism from plain old apathy?" When one considers it this way, there does seem to be some moral tinge (some ought thinking) going on in nihilism.

As I've said before, moral nihilists make some strong arguments (especially error theorists). But no one ever wants to argue nihilism here. They're all "relativists."

What irks me is when these "relativists" have well-developed theories of justice that they express outside of the philosophy subforum--ie. they think that it's just for gays to be treated as equal citizens in a society. And they push the idea fervently. Make no mistake: I agree with them wholeheartedly. But you can't say, "Treating gays as second class citizens is wrong," and then turn around and say, "morals are nothing more than the product of sociological custom."

Having a theory of justice at all presupposes some sense of moral realism. Otherwise, the only real reason a person would fight for gay rights is that "it is customary to do so." I know you feel me on this brotha. Wink
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#12
RE: Is Moral Nihilism a Morality?
There's a chain of thought that contends that ought is contained and inextricable from the proper understanding of the term morality (much like "functional" is included in the proper understanding of a tv - if it doesn't do work it's junk, not a flatscreen.).  If this were true, any comment on morality will or at least could carry an explicit or implied ought, even a comment on anti-realist morality.
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#13
RE: Is Moral Nihilism a Morality?
(May 12, 2019 at 6:04 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: Having a theory of justice at all presupposes some sense of moral realism.

As compared to the moral fantasies of theism? But even theists have theories of justice.
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#14
RE: Is Moral Nihilism a Morality?
VL, aren't our morals ultimately derived from our instincts for survival? Dunno

Also, aren't our jails full of "rational" human beings?

I feel this argument is entirely a philosophical one.
No God, No fear.
Know God, Know fear.
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#15
RE: Is Moral Nihilism a Morality?
(May 12, 2019 at 6:56 pm)Alan V Wrote:
(May 12, 2019 at 6:04 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: Having a theory of justice at all presupposes some sense of moral realism.

As compared to the moral fantasies of theism?  But even theists have theories of justice.

I fail to see how theistic belief can serve as a basis for morality. 

If you are acting a certain way to go to heaven/avoid hell... that's doing what's in your self interest-- not morality.

Divine command is something of an incoherent clusterfuck of an ethical theory. I think Plato handily refuted it in Euthyphro.

Natural law is okay. It is a coherent theory. It has problems (but all monistic theories have problems, so we can't count that as a strike). The theory appeals to Christians, and Aquinas (its progenitor) entwined the theory with his Christian theology. But the thing is, in principle, an atheist could adopt natural law theory as his ethics. Therefore, no God needed there either.

No one has successfully convinced me that theism is necessary for (or has anything to do with) morality.

Many theists are moral people, and some moral principles found in the Bible (like the golden rule) are excellent. But that doesn't mean theism has anything to do with morality. There doesn't have to be a god for the Golden Rule to be a sound principle.
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#16
RE: Is Moral Nihilism a Morality?
(May 12, 2019 at 8:18 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: I fail to see how theistic belief can serve as a basis for morality. 

I am better acquainted with Sufi interpretations of Islam that with Christianity. According to what I learned, the basic principle is "no god but God," which due to the names of God also translates to "no absolute but the Absolute." This introduces a kind of iconoclastic, relativistic morality to at least a part of the Islamic community rather early on, and lays the basis for any number of moral arguments against any possible kind of idolatry. So it provides the rationale for a kind of virtue ethics, where specific virtues can be supported by their relationship to avoiding idolatry of worldly things. Religious rituals of various sorts can also be rationalized by this underlying monotheistic principle.
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#17
RE: Is Moral Nihilism a Morality?
(May 12, 2019 at 12:18 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: "That way the fallacy of the stolen concept lies."

That was a thoughtful post, Jor. I had to look up the stolen concept fallacy. But (in doing so) I came to realize that advancing the claim that moral nihilists are indeed realists would not be logically sound. The moral nihilist is to morality as the atheist is to gods. As a realist, I don't want to use the same caveman tactics that theists use. It would be fallacious to say that nihilism is an incoherent or self-contradictory position. It isn't.

But I think that exploring the notion that "moral nihilism is a morality" raises some interesting epistemological questions about how much "positive belief" may lie in the nonbelief of something. "What is belief?" is an important question in epistemology. Perhaps equally important is: "What is nonbelief?"

(May 12, 2019 at 7:40 pm)ignoramus Wrote: VL, aren't our morals ultimately derived from our instincts for survival? Dunno

I covered that recently here, if you gotta minute to look it over. (The part where I talk about instincts is half way down, after the second Smaug quote.)

Quote:Also, aren't our jails full of "rational" human beings?

A rational being is merely capable of figuring out the right thing to do and doing it. That doesn't mean rational beings will always use their rational faculties in this way.

Quote:I feel this argument is entirely a philosophical one.

Well it is the philosophy subforum, Iggy.  Tongue
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#18
RE: Is Moral Nihilism a Morality?
500 years from now we may be arguing religion and science but philosophy will not be a thing.
God thinks it's fun to confuse primates. Larsen's God!






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#19
RE: Is Moral Nihilism a Morality?
(May 12, 2019 at 9:41 pm)chimp3 Wrote: 500 years from now we may be arguing religion and science but philosophy will not be a thing.

Wow. You mean 500 years from now, people will just accept whatever truth their given without questioning it?

Sounds a little dystopian. Could you pass the soma, please?
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#20
RE: Is Moral Nihilism a Morality?
(May 12, 2019 at 9:44 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote:
(May 12, 2019 at 9:41 pm)chimp3 Wrote: 500 years from now we may be arguing religion and science but philosophy will not be a thing.

Wow. You mean 500 years from now, people will just accept whatever truth their given without questioning it?

Sounds a little dystopian. Could you pass the soma, please?

If you want to lump critical thinking into philososphy that is fine. Otherwise science has superceded philosophy.
God thinks it's fun to confuse primates. Larsen's God!






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