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Best arguments for or against God's existence
#11
RE: Best arguments for or against God's existence
(May 22, 2019 at 12:34 am)vulcanlogician Wrote:
(May 22, 2019 at 12:23 am)Acrobat Wrote: Except of course the moral argument is just another design argument, the only real difference between it and other design arguments is that’s it more like the design of a novel, than an engineering project.

Such arguments are derived from the perception of intrinsic meaning and purpose, like a novel might possess, they are teleological arguments, just a different sort.

Do you think the argument from morality holds water?

I think so, at least a basic one that’s not specific to any single religion or religious text.

I would argue that suggestions even if made by self identify atheists, that moral rightness and wrongness exists objectively, present a reality akin to something like a novel, I.e a design argument.

I think the moral argument holds water, so much so that it seems pretty difficult even for many atheists to reject objective morality, or beliefs in some sort of transcendent moral reality.

At least that’s my opinion.
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#12
RE: Best arguments for or against God's existence
(May 22, 2019 at 12:51 am)Acrobat Wrote:
(May 22, 2019 at 12:34 am)vulcanlogician Wrote: Do you think the argument from morality holds water?

I think so, at least a basic one that’s not specific to any single religion or religious text.

I would argue that suggestions even if made by self identify atheists, that moral rightness and wrongness exists objectively, present a reality akin to something like a novel, I.e a design argument.

I think the moral argument holds water, so much so that it seems pretty difficult even for many atheists to reject objective morality, or beliefs in some sort of transcendent moral reality.

At least that’s my opinion.


You can be a moral realist without God or religion though. Examine this formal argument and tell me how God is necessary to make it true:

Quote:(1) A property P is genuine if it figures ineliminably in a good explanation of observed
phenomena.
(2) Moral properties figure ineliminably in good explanations of observed phenomena.
Therefore
(3) Moral properties are genuine.

Quote:The ability of putative moral properties to feature in good explanations is one perennially attractive argument in favour of the metaphysical claims of realism. The initially attractive thought is that moral properties earn their ontological rights in the same way as the metaphysically unproblematic properties of the natural and social sciences, namely by figuring in good explanatory theories. So just as, for example, a physicist may explain why an oil droplet stays suspended in an electro-magnetic field by citing its charge, or a social scientist may explain high levels of mental illness by citing income inequality, a ‘moral scientist’ may explain the growth of political protest movements or social instability by citing injustice. Likewise, just as an observer of the physicist may explain why he believes that the oil droplet is charged by citing the charge itself, and an observer of the sociologist may explain why she believes that income inequality exists by citing the inequality itself, an observer of the ‘moral scientist’ may explain why they believe that a situation is unjust by citing the injustice itself. In such cases, it appears that the instantiation of a moral property – injustice – is causally relevant in producing an effect – a political protest movement or moral judgement.
http://eprints.nottingham.ac.uk/1930/1/T...prints.pdf
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#13
RE: Best arguments for or against God's existence
Facts vs fiction


Best arguments against religion
Sanity adjacent.


Angel





IMGUR 
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#14
RE: Best arguments for or against God's existence
(May 22, 2019 at 12:51 am)Acrobat Wrote:
(May 22, 2019 at 12:34 am)vulcanlogician Wrote: Do you think the argument from morality holds water?

I think so, at least a basic one that’s not specific to any single religion or religious text.

I would argue that suggestions even if made by self identify atheists, that moral rightness and wrongness exists objectively, present a reality akin to something like a novel, I.e a design argument.

I think the moral argument holds water, so much so that it seems pretty difficult even for many atheists to reject objective morality, or beliefs in some sort of transcendent moral reality.

At least that’s my opinion.

Atheists are people who don't believe in gods, Acro.  It's not a position on morality.  What vulcan was asking you was whether or not it held water -as an argument for a god, not whether or not it held water as an argument for moral realism.
When in the course of human events it becomes necessary for a battle to commence then KPLOW, I hit em with the illness of my quill, Im endowed..with certain unalienable skills....  

-ERB


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#15
RE: Best arguments for or against God's existence
For: hard problem of consciousness. Matter can't generate subjective experience.
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#16
RE: Best arguments for or against God's existence
Why would that, if true, be an argument for a god?

(that's actually a question I have about alot of god arguments - why are they always some argument for another x, instead of "the best argument for a god is this and this and this" -about gods-)
When in the course of human events it becomes necessary for a battle to commence then KPLOW, I hit em with the illness of my quill, Im endowed..with certain unalienable skills....  

-ERB


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#17
RE: Best arguments for or against God's existence
(May 22, 2019 at 2:54 am)Dmitry1983 Wrote: For: hard problem of consciousness. Matter can't generate subjective experience.

The fact is, we don't completely understand consciousness. But one thing we DO know refutes your statement. However consciousness comes to be, brain states cause mental states. That much is certain.

In my assessment matter can generate subjective experience. How it does this might be a mystery. As Searle says: mental states are causally reducible to brain states, however due to the presence of qualia, conscious states are not ontologically reducible to brain states.

What does this tell us?

First, it tells us that you are wrong in your assertion. Show me a subjective experience that doesn't correspond with a physical state (brain state) and I'll change my mind.

Second, it tells us that we don't know much about consciousness and (therefore) we should avoid wild assertions-- or (in your case) presumptions that reinforce your biases.
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#18
RE: Best arguments for or against God's existence
(May 22, 2019 at 2:54 am)Dmitry1983 Wrote: For: hard problem of consciousness. Matter can't generate subjective experience.

Thats actually an argument against  ... If "matter can't generate subjective experience", why would a God create matter?
Religion is the top shelf of the supernatural supermarket ... Madog
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#19
RE: Best arguments for or against God's existence
(May 22, 2019 at 2:39 am)Gae Bolga Wrote:
(May 22, 2019 at 12:51 am)Acrobat Wrote: I think so, at least a basic one that’s not specific to any single religion or religious text.

I would argue that suggestions even if made by self identify atheists, that moral rightness and wrongness exists objectively, present a reality akin to something like a novel, I.e a design argument.

I think the moral argument holds water, so much so that it seems pretty difficult even for many atheists to reject objective morality, or beliefs in some sort of transcendent moral reality.

At least that’s my opinion.

Atheists are people who don't believe in gods, Acro.  It's not a position on morality.  What vulcan was asking you was whether or not it held water -as an argument for a god, not whether or not it held water as an argument for moral realism.

I’m arguing that it hold as an argument for design, since Vulcan views the design argument as best among other theistic arguments for god. I’m merely criticizing his separation of the moral argument from other design arguments.
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#20
RE: Best arguments for or against God's existence
Another argument for another x, instead of an argument for gods about gods. It really does perplex me that even the faithful don't think that arguing for a god by reference to gods is a workable idea.

Imagine if anything else worked like that. Say I wanted to convince you that tigers were real. Would I opine on the migratory habits of atlantic blues, or the water table in minnesota? Would you?
When in the course of human events it becomes necessary for a battle to commence then KPLOW, I hit em with the illness of my quill, Im endowed..with certain unalienable skills....  

-ERB


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