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RE: Allow Me to Introduce Myself
September 18, 2019 at 7:25 pm
(September 18, 2019 at 1:45 pm)Objectivist Wrote: If I could change one thing about the world with a wave of my hand it would be a change of how we educate our children. they should be taught to reason. They should be thought to think in terms of essentials and then they would be armed against philosophical garbage because they would be able to see the contradictions and stolen concepts involved.
You got that right. Children should have a grasp of the basic logical fallacies and practice in correctly identifying them, before middle school in my view. Alas ... what we have at least in the US is nothing at all, and we will continue that way so long as conservative parents have anything to say about it. Religious totems and conservative policy shibboleths must NEVER be questioned or have to defend themselves on a level playing field. Ever.
My guess is that many teachers would not like that either. They would rather be automatically afforded unearned respect and deference by virtue of their position rather than have runny-nosed kids asking inconvenient questions. Most of those teachers would not themselves recognize a logical fallacy if it bit them in the ass.
We certainly have our work cut out for us.
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RE: Allow Me to Introduce Myself
September 18, 2019 at 7:55 pm
(September 18, 2019 at 7:25 pm)mordant Wrote: Children should have a grasp of the basic logical fallacies and practice in correctly identifying them, before middle school in my view. Alas ... what we have at least in the US is nothing at all, and we will continue that way so long as conservative parents have anything to say about it.
I certainly agree that critical thinking is essential, that it can largely be taught, and that it should be valued.
Something to be careful of, though: logic and rationality, in the human world, are never applied independently of ideology. Indeed, the position that we should judge things based on logic and rationality is itself an ideology, and is itself something that critical thinking can examine.
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RE: Allow Me to Introduce Myself
September 19, 2019 at 11:49 am
(September 18, 2019 at 7:25 pm)mordant Wrote: (September 18, 2019 at 1:45 pm)Objectivist Wrote: If I could change one thing about the world with a wave of my hand it would be a change of how we educate our children. they should be taught to reason. They should be thought to think in terms of essentials and then they would be armed against philosophical garbage because they would be able to see the contradictions and stolen concepts involved.
You got that right. Children should have a grasp of the basic logical fallacies and practice in correctly identifying them, before middle school in my view. Alas ... what we have at least in the US is nothing at all, and we will continue that way so long as conservative parents have anything to say about it. Religious totems and conservative policy shibboleths must NEVER be questioned or have to defend themselves on a level playing field. Ever.
My guess is that many teachers would not like that either. They would rather be automatically afforded unearned respect and deference by virtue of their position rather than have runny-nosed kids asking inconvenient questions. Most of those teachers would not themselves recognize a logical fallacy if it bit them in the ass.
We certainly have our work cut out for us. I think it's even worse than having nothing here in the United States. What we have is anti-conceptual education designed to create concrete-bound, range of the moment, feelings over facts mentalities. The last thing they want is independent thinkers. They teach everything as if it is a separate, perceptual concrete with no connection to anything. One day they are talking about the french revolution and the next day Paul Revere and then onto ancient Rome. In my whole school career from elementary through College, I was never taught what reason is or even given a definition. It was just taken for granted that I knew, I guess. Even in philosophy classes in college, it was never mentioned. So yes we do have a lot of work to do.
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RE: Allow Me to Introduce Myself
September 19, 2019 at 12:00 pm
Speaking of philosophy, now that this is in the philosophy section..can you flesh out why or how asserting a god, or the god of the bible, violates the primacy of existence?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Allow Me to Introduce Myself
September 19, 2019 at 12:59 pm
(September 19, 2019 at 12:00 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: Speaking of philosophy, now that this is in the philosophy section..can you flesh out why or how asserting a god, or the god of the bible, violates the primacy of existence?
Gladly Gae,
It violates it by affirming the primacy of consciousness, e.g., the various doctrines of creation, of faith, of prayer, of "God's plan", of miracles, etc. In the act of asserting a god, one is making use of the primacy of existence in making the claim that a god exists while in the content of the claim, affirming the primacy of consciousness. Therefore one is saying that existence exists independent of consciousness and there also exists a consciousness on which existence is dependent. It's a self-contradictory statement.
Here is an essay that goes into detail: http://katholon.com/Theism_vs_Primacy-of-Existence.htm
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RE: Allow Me to Introduce Myself
September 19, 2019 at 3:42 pm
(September 18, 2019 at 7:55 pm)Belaqua Wrote: (September 18, 2019 at 7:25 pm)mordant Wrote: Children should have a grasp of the basic logical fallacies and practice in correctly identifying them, before middle school in my view. Alas ... what we have at least in the US is nothing at all, and we will continue that way so long as conservative parents have anything to say about it.
I certainly agree that critical thinking is essential, that it can largely be taught, and that it should be valued.
Something to be careful of, though: logic and rationality, in the human world, are never applied independently of ideology. Indeed, the position that we should judge things based on logic and rationality is itself an ideology, and is itself something that critical thinking can examine.
This is not a problem if one's ideology is true.
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RE: Allow Me to Introduce Myself
September 19, 2019 at 3:46 pm
(This post was last modified: September 19, 2019 at 3:47 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Nope.
You just reasserted that it didnt, and gave a link to that reassertion.
Lay it out for me.
How...specifically, does the idea of a god violate some logical principle?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Allow Me to Introduce Myself
September 19, 2019 at 4:13 pm
(September 19, 2019 at 3:46 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: Nope.
You just reasserted that it didnt, and gave a link to that reassertion.
Lay it out for me.
How...specifically, does the idea of a god violate some logical principle?
The article I linked to lays it out step by step in much greater detail than I can provide here.
God is said to be conscious. It is said to have emotions, desires, love, plans, intentions, etc. It is said that it becomes jealous and angry. If a god is conscious, it must be conscious of something. There is a necessary relationship between its objects and its consciousness. What is that relationship according to theists? Which has primacy according to theists, the subject or the objects? According to theists, the objects of God's consciousness conform to its conscious intentions. Things are said to happen according to God's plan. Therefore, the notion of gods, at least the ones of the major religions, affirm the primacy of consciousness.
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RE: Allow Me to Introduce Myself
September 19, 2019 at 4:16 pm
(This post was last modified: September 19, 2019 at 4:18 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Fuck, thats not good.........
Quote:God is said to be conscious. It is said to have emotions, desires, love, plans, intentions, etc. It is said that it becomes jealous and angry. If a god is conscious, it must be conscious of something. There is a necessary relationship between its objects and its consciousness. What is that relationship according to theists? Which has primacy according to theists, the subject or the objects? According to theists, the objects of God's consciousness conform to its conscious intentions. Things are said to happen according to God's plan. Therefore, the notion of gods, at least the ones of the major religions, affirm the primacy of consciousness.
sure...but...? I the notion of gods affirm the primacy of consciousness, how can you reject those notions on account of how they reject that axiom?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Allow Me to Introduce Myself
September 19, 2019 at 4:59 pm
(September 19, 2019 at 4:16 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: Fuck, thats not good.........
Quote:God is said to be conscious. It is said to have emotions, desires, love, plans, intentions, etc. It is said that it becomes jealous and angry. If a god is conscious, it must be conscious of something. There is a necessary relationship between its objects and its consciousness. What is that relationship according to theists? Which has primacy according to theists, the subject or the objects? According to theists, the objects of God's consciousness conform to its conscious intentions. Things are said to happen according to God's plan. Therefore, the notion of gods, at least the ones of the major religions, affirm the primacy of consciousness.
sure...but...? I the notion of gods affirm the primacy of consciousness, how can you reject those notions on account of how they reject that axiom?
Do you agree with me that theism affirms the primacy of consciousness? If you do then it should be obvious how I can reject the notion of gods. I do it for the same reason that I reject the statement that 2+2=7 because it contradicts the fact that 2 + 2 = 4.
Does wishing make things so Gae? If wishing does not make things so, then a claim that says that it does would be false, no?
Now I've explained how theism violates the POE, I've given plenty of examples and I've linked to an article which provides even more examples and a more detailed explanation. Chew on it for a while and consider its implications. I don't know what else I can do.
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