Evidence for Believing

[Simon Moon]

But once again, with the data provided to me by theists, and the lack of confirmed, verifiable miracles or supernatural causes to examine, isn't my disbelief in a god rationally based?

Even if, and that's a big if, miracles and supernatural causes could be confirmed. That still would not mean a god is responsible. You can't get to 'therefore god exists', from, 'something supernatural occured.

Of course disbelief and skepticism can be rational. So can faith and belief. I don't think atheists are all irrational, but I contend that neither am I.

If you are defining faith in the Hebrews 11:1 way, then faith is irrational by definition. If you are defining it as belief without demonstrable evidence, then it is irrational.

Believing without demonstrable and falsifiable evidence, and valid and sound logic, is irrational.

The existence of a supernatural cause is distinguishable from no supernatural cause, because of the difference between an absolutely uniform, or relatively uniform, causal chain of natural events. I don't understand what you mean by "a god"' if you don't mean a supernatural cause.

Name one confirmable, evidential, demonstrable supernatural event.

[Simon Moon]

Please let me know the specific steps I could take, that would get me to the same understanding of this god you claim exists, and has the attributes you claim it has.

I've told you a number of times already.  Read my lips!  There is no scientific method that I know of to finding God.  The way I see it is to have a true desire to know God and be willing accept what he gives to you.  Go to him in prayer and ask for him to reveal himself to you.  While being open to God's guidance, study religions and spiritual philosophies and continue to ask for God's guidance.  I didn't particularly want to be connected to the spiritual philosophy I now have, so I tried to make myself believe something else.  Invariably, I came back to it though.  This seems to be where God wants me to be now.  It may not happen immediately, but slowly over time.  Don't expect some tremendous experience to happen.

I may come to accept certain beliefs based on my images of God, which are often cultural, to try to explain a being who is indescribable.  These are different than most others' images, but I don't think God cares about that as long as we know him.  All these images and ideas are not him.

Sorry, maybe I wasn't as clear as I thought I was being.

I wasn't asking for a scientific method for finding god. I was asking for any method.

For example, if I wanted to become a good chess player (1800 rating), I could poll a bunch of chess masters for the best method. They would answer with things like: read the following books, practice against the following computer programs, enter beginner tournaments, play N number of hours per week, etc.

All I am asking is some kind of equivalent method.

[Lek]

Yeah. I don't think you're going to find the kind of method you're looking for. It's too bad because it seems that's what is holding you back from believing. I can see that, though you don't believe, you are willing to be open to it and I respect that.

[Anomalocaris]

Yeah.  I don't think you're going to find the kind of method you're looking for.  It's too bad because it seems that's what is holding you  back from believing.  I can see that, though don't believe,  you are willing to be open to it and I respect that.

Sane people have good reason not to be open to insanity.

[Lek]

Yeah.  I don't think you're going to find the kind of method you're looking for.  It's too bad because it seems that's what is holding you  back from believing.  I can see that, though don't believe,  you are willing to be open to it and I respect that.

Sane people have good reason not to be open to insanity.

Why don't you just be nice to me once? Then I'll have a heart attack and be out of your way.

[Anomalocaris]

Sane people have good reason not to be open to insanity.

Why don't you just be nice to me once?  Then I'll have a heart attack and be out of your way.

I am being mean to you so you won't have an heart attack.   I think I deserve a little thanks and appreciation here.

[Simon Moon]

Yeah.  I don't think you're going to find the kind of method you're looking for.  It's too bad because it seems that's what is holding you  back from believing.  I can see that, though you don't believe, you are willing to be open to it and I respect that.

Well then, any rational reading of the situation, would be, that, if your god does exist, he is purposely hiding from a fairly large (and growing) segment of his creation.

What other conclusion can I make, based on what is being offered to me by you, and other theists? And that is all I have to go on, because a god certainly hasn't made his presence known to me.

Your god gave us brains that are capable of observing the universe, and able to develop the best method (demonstrable evidence, reasoned argument, valid and sound logic) for discerning fact from fantasy, then makes himself invisible from this method.

And who does he seem to make himself detectable to? The credulous and gullible. And to make things even worse, the credulous and gullible can't even demonstrate that they aren't being credulous and gullible.

I can see that, though you don't believe, you are willing to be open to it and I respect that.

I do appreciate this sentiment.

But let me add, the vast majority of atheists I have communicated in person, and online, are also open to being convinced.

[Lek]

Why don't you just be nice to me once?  Then I'll have a heart attack and be out of your way.

I am being mean to you so you won't have an heart attack.   I think I deserve a little thanks and appreciation here.

Ah, I see. Thanks then.

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Yeah.  I don't think you're going to find the kind of method you're looking for.  It's too bad because it seems that's what is holding you  back from believing.  I can see that, though you don't believe, you are willing to be open to it and I respect that.

Well then, any rational reading of the situation, would be, that, if your god does exist, he is purposely hiding from a fairly large (and growing) segment of his creation.

What other conclusion can I make, based on what is being offered to me by you, and other theists? And that is all I have to go on, because a god certainly hasn't made his presence known to me.

Your god gave us brains that are capable of observing the universe, and able to develop the best method (demonstrable evidence, reasoned argument, valid and sound logic) for discerning fact from fantasy, then makes himself invisible from this method.

And who does he seem to make himself detectable to? The credulous and gullible. And to make things even worse, the credulous and gullible can't even demonstrate that they aren't being credulous and gullible.

I can see that, though you don't believe, you are willing to be open to it and I respect that.

I do appreciate this sentiment.

But let me add, the vast majority of atheists I have communicated in person, and online, are also open to being convinced.

The methods he endowed us with are to be used to get us through our lives in this universe. To gain unity with the being who is beyond our natural universe, we must rely on him who doesn't always operate by natural methods.

[Gwaithmir]

The methods he endowed us with are to be used to get us through our lives in this universe. To gain unity with the being who is beyond our natural universe,  we must rely on him who doesn't always operate by natural methods.

The perfect sop for those who can't or won't think for themselves. Just look at all the work it saves! No reasons to think rationally, just check your brains at the door and believe. If it feels good, believe it!

“The advantage of faith over reason is that reason requires understanding. Which usually requires education; resources of time and money. Religion needs none of that. It empowers the lowliest idiot to believe that he is wiser than the wise, ignoring all indications otherwise.” (Aaron Ra)

[Inqwizitor]

Your gap argument is and always will be a gap argument.  That's just the way it is.  It's not a good argument, at all...but it obviously informs you.  I think you might want to explore why it informs you, and why you reject other explanations.

What gap argument? The "god of the gaps" is a way of attributing to the divine what has a natural cause. I don't think that's a good argument, either.

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If you are defining faith in the Hebrews 11:1 way, then faith is irrational by definition. If you are defining it as belief without demonstrable evidence, then it is irrational.

Believing without demonstrable and falsifiable evidence, and valid and sound logic, is irrational.

The author states that faith is not borne of observation, that's not irrational. Is logic irrational? It's not based on observation either. Is intuition irrational?

Name one confirmable, evidential, demonstrable supernatural event.

What does this mean, that I have to be able to repeat a supernatural event under experimental controls so you can verify it? That's obviously begging the question.

How about the miraculous healing of Marion Carroll. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TO7PJkzcVU