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The hijab (etc) is immodest
#51
RE: The hijab (etc) is immodest
(January 25, 2020 at 7:52 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: In my opinion, people must have the freedom to live as they want unless they are causing harm to somebody else.
Physical harm is identifiable and easy to detect; while psychological harm must be conditioned to its physical conclusion -like causing depression to somebody via constant bullying-.
As long as no harm is caused; things can indeed change or stay the way they are.

Yes, good points. 

"Psychological harm" may be awfully hard to spot, in terms of direct cause-and-effect. And I imagine that when we're causing it our victim may well be trying hard not to show what's happening. 

Freud writes well about this in his Civilization and its Discontents. He points out that we can never reach a final healthy permanent balance. The tension between what society demands and what we want, and the tension among different things that we ourselves want, can't be resolved, only managed. 

But surely the main thing is to avoid inflicting harm when we can possibly avoid it.

Quote:People will rebel and get around anything forced on them, unless they are totally convinced with the rule implied. That's why I insist that freedom of choice is "a must".

I studied in a Saudi Wahhabi school and there weren't any girls. Boys resorted to homosexuality -just like the case in prisons-, they got around the rule of "no sex".

Sex is probably the best example. Decrees from above never work. 

Internalized rules, as you say, will operate more effectively. (Freud's description of the Superego is all about this.) I think peer pressure works because the shame it brings on is closer to an internal view than that caused by "higher authority." 

People in Japan often talk about "shame culture vs. guilt culture," where they say that Japanese society tends to be more orderly because it demands (or used to demand) group behavior. Roof-thatching or rice-planting can only be done by the whole village together, and so being ostracized is the worst thing. This contrasts to American culture, where everybody thinks he's Clint Eastwood. That's too simple to be true in every case, but I think it's a useful distinction.
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#52
RE: The hijab (etc) is immodest
The hijab is insanely sexist and a complete symbol of the oppression of women that is somehow openly accepted in many regions of the world, and to be honest, it's pretty fucking insane and very sad to me that it is still socially acceptable today. I think most men who want to control their women on such a level, religious or not, hijab or not (control and oppression of women exists in many forms), are hugely insecure. Women are gorgeous, beautiful beings and most of us men are fucking gross. The control is the fear that, if she had the freedom to choose for herself, she'd have any man she wants and then some, because she can.

The hijab is fucking gross.
If you're frightened of dying, and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the Earth.
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#53
RE: The hijab (etc) is immodest
(December 10, 2019 at 10:20 am)BrokenQuill92 Wrote:
(December 10, 2019 at 10:18 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: The original purpose of what has now become traditional dress was modesty, and arguably justified as a way to protect women from rape in a barbaric time and region, but now it's purpose is tradition and a way to announce that you're a Muslim.
I know that I’m just saying that for the modern Muslim women who wear it and say they’re being modest, they’re lying.
I think the word you’re looking for is “wrong.” “Lying” implies that A) the claim is wrong, B) the person saying it knows it’s wrong, but C) Expects you to take it seriously anyway. I’m not disputing A, but I think you really need to prove B before you call it “lying.”

(January 26, 2020 at 11:11 pm)EgoDeath Wrote: The hijab is insanely sexist and a complete symbol of the oppression of women that is somehow openly accepted in many regions of the world, and to be honest, it's pretty fucking insane and very sad to me that it is still socially acceptable today. I think most men who want to control their women on such a level, religious or not, hijab or not (control and oppression of women exists in many forms), are hugely insecure. Women are gorgeous, beautiful beings and most of us men are fucking gross. The control is the fear that, if she had the freedom to choose for herself, she'd have any man she wants and then some, because she can.

The hijab is fucking gross.

I think that this is one of those cases where Muhammad probably had a point back when he was alive, but unfortunately, Muhammad’s been dead for 1387 years, things have changed, and it’s reached the point where it seems many believe a woman who goes around with any more of her body exposed than is absolutely necessary is asking to be raped. Come the fuck on, if I, a foot fetishist with a crippling fear of what might happen if I tell any at any girl who’s decided to expose her pretty feet in sandals that I think they’re beautiful, can go around without sexually assaulting anyone, it shouldn’t be that hard.
Comparing the Universal Oneness of All Life to Yo Mama since 2010.

[Image: harmlesskitchen.png]

I was born with the gift of laughter and a sense the world is mad.
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#54
RE: The hijab (etc) is immodest
(January 26, 2020 at 11:28 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote: I think that this is one of those cases where Muhammad probably had a point back when he was alive, but unfortunately, Muhammad’s been dead for 1387 years, things have changed, and it’s reached the point where it seems many believe a woman who goes around with any more of her body exposed than is absolutely necessary is asking to be raped. Come the fuck on, if I, a foot fetishist with a crippling fear of what might happen if I tell any at any girl who’s decided to expose her pretty feet in sandals that I think they’re beautiful, can go around without sexually assaulting anyone, it shouldn’t be that hard.

Well, that's the thing... The hijab is supposed to protect modesty... But who the fuck says modesty is what a woman should be after? It's 2020, so so what if a woman wants to show off everything she's got? And, obviously, dressing seductively doesn't ever, in any way shape or form, excuse sexual assault or rape.
If you're frightened of dying, and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the Earth.
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#55
RE: The hijab (etc) is immodest
FWIW, a while back I discovered a series of articles on “modesty culture.” They were written by an evangelical Christian (well, at least he was when he wrote them, but he has long been a dissenter, but, eventually, after Trump got elected with almost unanimous support from the Evangelical community, he left it altogether) who used his experiences when he was in Bill Gothard’s cult to inform these 12 articles on why such a focus on modesty only makes everything worse for everyone, except maybe those who profit from being able to control others. And Part 5 also goes into hijab and how it doesn’t work much better than Christian modesty culture.
Comparing the Universal Oneness of All Life to Yo Mama since 2010.

[Image: harmlesskitchen.png]

I was born with the gift of laughter and a sense the world is mad.
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#56
RE: The hijab (etc) is immodest
Interesting stuff! I say fuck modesty!
If you're frightened of dying, and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the Earth.
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#57
RE: The hijab (etc) is immodest
(January 26, 2020 at 11:11 pm)EgoDeath Wrote: The hijab is insanely sexist

The hijab is, more importantly, none of your business.

(January 26, 2020 at 11:11 pm)EgoDeath Wrote: and a complete symbol of the oppression of women

And curiously they never complain about being oppressed, so I would say you're putting words in their mouths.

(January 26, 2020 at 11:11 pm)EgoDeath Wrote: Women are gorgeous, beautiful beings

Yeah and that's why they wear the hijab. Thanks for pointing that out.


(January 26, 2020 at 11:11 pm)EgoDeath Wrote: The control is the fear that, if she had the freedom to choose for herself, she'd have any man she wants and then some, because she can.

She can still have any man she wants while veiled. This is retarded, sir.
Qur'anic revelation is the sole path to ultimate reality. All argumentation and philosophy is an expression of arrogance and an overestimation of human cognitive ability. 

"But believe me, Cleanthes, the most natural feeling that a well-disposed mind will have on this occasion is a longing desire and expectation that God will be pleased to remove or at least to lessen this profound ignorance, by giving mankind some particular revelation, revealing the nature, attributes, and operations of the divine object of our faith." (Hume's Dialogues)


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#58
RE: The hijab (etc) is immodest
Quote:And curiously they never complain about being oppressed, so I would say you're putting words in their mouths.

It's rather difficult for oppressed women in an insanely patriarchal society to speak out about their oppression.  That's kind of definitional.

Boru
‘Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.’ Ralph Waldo Emerson
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#59
RE: The hijab (etc) is immodest
(January 27, 2020 at 9:45 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: It's rather difficult for oppressed women in an insanely patriarchal society to speak out about their oppression.  That's kind of definitional.

Boru

There are european/american women who wear the hijab by choice, too, you know. So try including this category in your next unproved claim.
Qur'anic revelation is the sole path to ultimate reality. All argumentation and philosophy is an expression of arrogance and an overestimation of human cognitive ability. 

"But believe me, Cleanthes, the most natural feeling that a well-disposed mind will have on this occasion is a longing desire and expectation that God will be pleased to remove or at least to lessen this profound ignorance, by giving mankind some particular revelation, revealing the nature, attributes, and operations of the divine object of our faith." (Hume's Dialogues)


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#60
RE: The hijab (etc) is immodest
(January 27, 2020 at 9:53 am)Klorophyll Wrote:
(January 27, 2020 at 9:45 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: It's rather difficult for oppressed women in an insanely patriarchal society to speak out about their oppression.  That's kind of definitional.

Boru

There are european/american women who wear the hijab by choice, too, you know. So try including this category in your next unproved claim.

It was said above that the hijab is a symbol of the oppression of women.  This doesn’t mean that all women who wear it are oppressed.

Boru
‘Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.’ Ralph Waldo Emerson
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