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Effect of prayers on healing
#21
RE: Effect of prayers on healing
(March 31, 2020 at 11:25 pm)CommonMan Wrote: Hi all,

I came across this article:

Moderator Notice
Link removed due to 30/30 violation.  Please familiarize yourself with the rules.

Which claims that a research that was done on the effect of prayers on patients healing (retroactively!) wasn't done properly. It claims that:

"Of course there are many problems with this paper... It appears that most of the significance of this study can be ascribed to one outlier in the control group, whose stay in the hospital was extended. However, without access to the raw data it is hard to prove this. The fact that the median does not differ between the two treatment groups is another hint, i.e. that the results might look very different when the outlier is removed"

I didn't understand what he means, because as far as I know Median, Upper quartile and Lower quartile are not affected by extreme values in the list. So even if there was a patient who stayed for a much longer time in the hospital, it shouldn't have change the results in the final table.

So, do you agree with the article's author claim, and if so why?

Thanks.

What study are you talking about? I'm guessing the link that fell afoul of the 30/30 rule was it.
As a species, we are fucked. To the next generation, I offer my inadequate apologies.
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#22
RE: Effect of prayers on healing
(April 1, 2020 at 2:28 pm)arewethereyet Wrote:
(April 1, 2020 at 12:27 am)CommonMan Wrote: I thought that I came to a forum of a grown up men.

Grown up men.

Yeah, you're gonna be a hit around here...just the first of your bigotries to spill forth, no doubt.

Thanks for the warm welcome, so many good souls in this forum.

If you bothered to check the link that I gave, you would see that it's trying to debunk the prayers research. It's also clear from the quote in my post.

(April 1, 2020 at 2:42 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote:
(March 31, 2020 at 11:25 pm)CommonMan Wrote: Hi all,

I came across this article:

Which claims that a research that was done on the effect of prayers on patients healing (retroactively!) wasn't done properly. It claims that:

"Of course there are many problems with this paper... It appears that most of the significance of this study can be ascribed to one outlier in the control group, whose stay in the hospital was extended. However, without access to the raw data it is hard to prove this. The fact that the median does not differ between the two treatment groups is another hint, i.e. that the results might look very different when the outlier is removed"

I didn't understand what he means, because as far as I know Median, Upper quartile and Lower quartile are not affected by extreme values in the list. So even if there was a patient who stayed for a much longer time in the hospital, it shouldn't have change the results in the final table.

So, do you agree with the article's author claim, and if so why?

Thanks.
Welcome aboard.

You're asking if I agree with your claim, not the authors - to wit; that the author of the paper insists that extreme outliers don't tank the data set. Correct?

My question was: What's wrong with the statistic calculation in the prayers research. Because as you can see from the quote that I gave, the article's author (not the prayers research author) claims that there was a problem with the calculation.

I'm trying to understand what was the problem, it's a question about math and statistics.
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#23
RE: Effect of prayers on healing
(April 1, 2020 at 10:00 pm)CommonMan Wrote:
(April 1, 2020 at 2:28 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: Grown up men.

Yeah, you're gonna be a hit around here...just the first of your bigotries to spill forth, no doubt.

Thanks for the warm welcome, so many good souls in this forum.

If you bothered to check the link that I gave, you would see that it's trying to debunk the prayers research. It's also clear from the quote in my post.

The link was removed.  Therefore, I did not check your link.  
This is not a forum of grown up men...this is a forum of people...varying ages and varying genders/gender identities.
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#24
RE: Effect of prayers on healing
(April 1, 2020 at 11:08 pm)arewethereyet Wrote:
(April 1, 2020 at 10:00 pm)CommonMan Wrote: Thanks for the warm welcome, so many good souls in this forum.

If you bothered to check the link that I gave, you would see that it's trying to debunk the prayers research. It's also clear from the quote in my post.

The link was removed.  Therefore, I did not check your link.  
This is not a forum of grown up men...this is a forum of people...varying ages and varying genders/gender identities.

Not just people. For example, @LadyForCamus is, in fact, an evil genius cat in a human-robot suit......I fear I've said too much....
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      Conservative trigger warning.
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#25
RE: Effect of prayers on healing
(March 31, 2020 at 11:25 pm)CommonMan Wrote: Hi all,

I came across this article:

Moderator Notice
Link removed due to 30/30 violation.  Please familiarize yourself with the rules.

Which claims that a research that was done on the effect of prayers on patients healing (retroactively!) wasn't done properly. It claims that:

"Of course there are many problems with this paper... It appears that most of the significance of this study can be ascribed to one outlier in the control group, whose stay in the hospital was extended. However, without access to the raw data it is hard to prove this. The fact that the median does not differ between the two treatment groups is another hint, i.e. that the results might look very different when the outlier is removed"

I didn't understand what he means, because as far as I know Median, Upper quartile and Lower quartile are not affected by extreme values in the list. So even if there was a patient who stayed for a much longer time in the hospital, it shouldn't have change the results in the final table.

So, do you agree with the article's author claim, and if so why?

Thanks.

Hard to say given that your link was yanked but it would seem that the paper is suggesting that a previous study was deficient because the conclusions were based in part on bad data and sloppy analysis. That doesn't disprove the original study, nor does it prove the counter-claim, it just shows that the original study was flawed and the matter needs to be investigated properly.

If it's prayer they're carrying on about then there are a number of studies that have examined the topic and drawn similar conclusions: No Effect.
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#26
RE: Effect of prayers on healing
Why don't Christians receive a discount on their life insurance policies?

The worlds medical institutions and the insurance industry between them have gigantic data bases. If Christians were recovering from life threatening illnesses at a higher rate than non Christians we would see the correlation.

We don't.
Miserable Bastard.
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#27
RE: Effect of prayers on healing
(April 1, 2020 at 11:08 pm)arewethereyet Wrote:
(April 1, 2020 at 10:00 pm)CommonMan Wrote: Thanks for the warm welcome, so many good souls in this forum.

If you bothered to check the link that I gave, you would see that it's trying to debunk the prayers research. It's also clear from the quote in my post.

The link was removed.  Therefore, I did not check your link.  
This is not a forum of grown up men...this is a forum of people...varying ages and varying genders/gender identities.

I just came to fix it but I can't edit the post anymore, sorry that my English isn't perfect. "I thought that I came to a forum of a grown up people", that's what I meant to say. To see the link go to Google and search:

Effects of remote, retroactive intercessory prayer by Juliane

(April 2, 2020 at 12:57 am)Nay_Sayer Wrote:
(April 1, 2020 at 11:08 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: The link was removed.  Therefore, I did not check your link.  
This is not a forum of grown up men...this is a forum of people...varying ages and varying genders/gender identities.

Not just people. For example, @LadyForCamus is, in fact, an evil genius cat in a human-robot suit......I fear I've said too much....

I just realized that I was wrong but I can't edit or fix my post anymore :-( Yes English is not my native language sorry... "I thought that I came to a forum of a grown up people", that's what I wanted to say. To check the link go to Google and type:

Effects of remote, retroactive intercessory prayer by Juliane

It should be the first result, the BUMC Postdocs Blog.
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#28
RE: Effect of prayers on healing
I doubt that any mistake in the math can approach the more amusing purpose of the paper being reviewed...

Quote:Let’s now have a look at the abstract: Typical for medical abstracts it is divided into objective, study design, results and conclusions. It confirms what the title promises, the author researched the effects of remote prayer backwards through time. The patients were hospitalized between 1990 and 1996, while the praying took place in 2000. The author measured mortality and length of stay in the hospital as his variables and concluded that the intervention group fared better on both counts. He therefore concludes that retrograde remote prayer works and should be considered as a useful tool for medical doctors.

The author measured the mortality and length of stay of people who were already sick and healed (or not) - but for whom an intercessory prayer was said years later, lol.
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#29
RE: Effect of prayers on healing
(April 3, 2020 at 2:43 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: I doubt that any mistake in the math can approach the more amusing purpose of the paper being reviewed...

Quote:Let’s now have a look at the abstract: Typical for medical abstracts it is divided into objective, study design, results and conclusions. It confirms what the title promises, the author researched the effects of remote prayer backwards through time. The patients were hospitalized between 1990 and 1996, while the praying took place in 2000. The author measured mortality and length of stay in the hospital as his variables and concluded that the intervention group fared better on both counts. He therefore concludes that retrograde remote prayer works and should be considered as a useful tool for medical doctors.

The author measured the mortality and length of stay of people who were already sick and healed (or not) - but for whom an intercessory prayer was said years later, lol.

Maybe we should all combine our efforts and pray that Mr. Kennedy recovers from those head wounds.

Boru
‘Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.’ Ralph Waldo Emerson
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#30
RE: Effect of prayers on healing
Please see Post #18 by Editz.
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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