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Converting
#91
RE: Converting
The FSM explains the universe just as well as God, but the people who want public schools to teach in science classes that God created the universe don't want to give the FSM equal time. They say it's because the FSM is made up; ironically. Of course the same people don't want FSM taught in science classes don't want the Hindu creator god Brahma taught either...presumably because Brahma is made up too?
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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#92
RE: Converting
Quote:You said it is not entirely cogent to pray to a God that you don't believe in, but isn't that the point of studying the bible in the first place?  You are studying to learn about who God is and so naturally you should be open to the idea of applying what you've learned to seek God out.  Something brought you to it, even if it was just a curiosity.  You could liken it to knocking on a door to see if someone is there.  When you pray to Jesus you are inviting Him to open the door and show you He is real.
The Grand Nudger Wrote:You're describing motivations that don't apply to anyone but a person who already believes in gods.

They also apply to people who don't know whether God exists but are open to the idea.  They apply to seekers who can be of practically any kind of belief or mixture of beliefs.  Seekers are generally people who are exploring what life is all about and whether there is a higher meaning.

It applies to people who have had experiences that they can't explain.  I once had a discussion with someone professing atheism, and I simply asked him the question of whether he had ever had any supernatural experiences.  He thought for a minute and then said yes and admitted that in light of those experiences he would lean towards theism.  
Quote:This is how I believe the majority of people come to faith.  They start reading the bible and God begins to reveal Himself, leading them to commit their lives to Jesus Christ.  That is exactly what happened to me.
The Grand Nudger Wrote:The majority of people come to faith by being born into it, as you likely did.

That isn't true in my case.  My father was an atheist and my mother an ex-catholic and we never went to church or talked about God.  So I was defacto an agnostic until my late 20's.

Boru Wrote:No one has ever been able to adequately explain to me the logic behind 'You have to believe in God before you can believe in God.'

Not for lack of trying, though...

Boru

Hey Boru.  You don't have to believe in God to seek God out.  It's kind of like how people will search for hidden treasure that they saw on an ancient map but they don't know whether it is really there.  A lot of people begin the journey to seek God out because they can't reconcile their thoughts and feelings with their experiences in this world, and conclude that there has to be more to this life than what the world is offering.  That there has to be an overriding meaning to explain what cries out in the depths of their soul.  I think that is often a cry for justice, and a cry for meaning beyond the grave.  Everyone has a unique testimony;  you could spend days listening to Christian testimonies on Youtube on why they came to Christ and not get many duplicates.
~Jesus didn't come to make bad people good.  He came to make dead people alive~
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#93
RE: Converting
(May 1, 2020 at 12:37 am)cleansed Wrote: A lot of people begin the journey to seek God out because they can't reconcile their thoughts and feelings with their experiences in this world, and conclude that there has to be more to this life than what the world is offering.  That there has to be an overriding meaning to explain what cries out in the depths of their soul.  I think that is often a cry for justice, and a cry for meaning beyond the grave. 

Cry for justice turns you into believing in an unjust God.

But to me it seems what you are trying to describe why you believe in God, rather comes from reasons that come to a category of people who are bored in life, have monotonous jobs or can't deal with problems in life and start believing in fantasy like bigfoot or aliens or God and angels or goblins - so that they can spice up their life or pacify themselves by believing in abstract and incomprehensible things.

One of best examples is this Muslims exorcist who had a very boring life and job as a copy machine operator, so one day he decided to exorcise jinns from people, and, all of a sudden, his life got more interesting because people are flocking to him seeking an advice, he suddenly feels useful to society.



teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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#94
RE: Converting
(May 1, 2020 at 12:37 am)cleansed Wrote: They also apply to people who don't know whether God exists but are open to the idea.  They apply to seekers who can be of practically any kind of belief or mixture of beliefs.  Seekers are generally people who are exploring what life is all about and whether there is a higher meaning.

Sure, any mixture, as long as they contain god beliefs.  

Quote:It applies to people who have had experiences that they can't explain.  I once had a discussion with someone professing atheism, and I simply asked him the question of whether he had ever had any supernatural experiences.  He thought for a minute and then said yes and admitted that in light of those experiences he would lean towards theism.  
Your friend has a disorganized mind.  

Quote:That isn't true in my case.  My father was an atheist and my mother an ex-catholic and we never went to church or talked about God.  So I was defacto an agnostic until my late 20's.
How convenient was it that the true religion was the one with the christ you knew from childhood?  Cmon man...lol

People don't search for treasure unless they believe in treasure.  You're beginning to sound like all of the worst cliches we get on these boards.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#95
RE: Converting
(May 1, 2020 at 7:20 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote:
Quote:That isn't true in my case.  My father was an atheist and my mother an ex-catholic and we never went to church or talked about God.  So I was defacto an agnostic until my late 20's.
How convenient was it that the true religion was the one with the christ you knew from childhood?  Cmon man...lol

People don't search for treasure unless they believe in treasure.  You're beginning to sound like all of the worst cliches we get on these boards.
I didn't know anything about Jesus until I started to seek God out.  My mom was an ex-catholic, but that was from her childhood.  She never brought up God or practiced religion, and we as a family never went to church or talked about God.

(May 1, 2020 at 1:09 am)Fake Messiah Wrote:
(May 1, 2020 at 12:37 am)cleansed Wrote: A lot of people begin the journey to seek God out because they can't reconcile their thoughts and feelings with their experiences in this world, and conclude that there has to be more to this life than what the world is offering.  That there has to be an overriding meaning to explain what cries out in the depths of their soul.  I think that is often a cry for justice, and a cry for meaning beyond the grave. 

Cry for justice turns you into believing in an unjust God.

But to me it seems what you are trying to describe why you believe in God, rather comes from reasons that come to a category of people who are bored in life, have monotonous jobs or can't deal with problems in life and start believing in fantasy like bigfoot or aliens or God and angels or goblins - so that they can spice up their life or pacify themselves by believing in abstract and incomprehensible things.

One of best examples is this Muslims exorcist who had a very boring life and job as a copy machine operator, so one day he decided to exorcise jinns from people, and, all of a sudden, his life got more interesting because people are flocking to him seeking an advice, he suddenly feels useful to society.



Thanks for sharing the video with me.  I think that this man is sincere in his beliefs, and believes he is serving God by what he is doing.  Sincerity of course doesn't equate truth, nor does your level of boredom in life or emotional states.  Either God exists or He doesn't.  Either Jesus is the Son of God or He isn't.  I believe because I have found everything God has said to be true.  I believe the testimony of scripture which declares Jesus to be our Messiah, Gods lamb who was sacrificed for the sin of the world.  The words of Jesus Christ have come true in my life and God made me a new person when I believed.
~Jesus didn't come to make bad people good.  He came to make dead people alive~
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#96
RE: Converting
(May 4, 2020 at 10:57 pm)cleansed Wrote:
(May 1, 2020 at 7:20 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: How convenient was it that the true religion was the one with the christ you knew from childhood?  Cmon man...lol

People don't search for treasure unless they believe in treasure.  You're beginning to sound like all of the worst cliches we get on these boards.
I didn't know anything about Jesus until I started to seek God out.  My mom was an ex-catholic, but that was from her childhood.  She never brought up God or practiced religion, and we as a family never went to church or talked about God.

-and if she were an ex-hindu...you'd have found ganesh.  It's really not at all remarkable that people find religion, and even less remarkable when they find the religion of their parents.  

If you'd told us how you came from a catholic family, beat on the clouds, and heard the voice of Tlaloc clear as day...that would be surprising.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#97
RE: Converting
(April 28, 2020 at 2:47 am)Fake Messiah Wrote:
(April 28, 2020 at 1:42 am)cleansed Wrote: I encourage people to read it prayerfully, asking God about what they are reading and to show them the truth.

The truth is that God is obsessed with sex, human genitals, and discharge from human genitals. And that's not all, the truth is also that God is jealous and proud of it, he is racist, he is petty, he is infanticidal, homophobic, misogynistic and so on.

If you read Bram Stoker's Dracula you find a refreshingly moral person in Dracula compared to God from the Bible because Dracula’s craving was a mere drop in the bucket compared to the oceans of blood demanded by Yahweh. Or Simon Legree from Uncle Tom’s Cabin is a pale copy of the slave-master from the Bible.

The truth is that God is love, that He abounding in loving kindness.  God is slow to anger and He desires that none should perish but that all should come to repentance.  He freely gives us this Earth and everything in it to enjoy.  He gives us air to breathe, water to drink, a mind to dream and imagine, legs to walk and arms to hug our loved ones.   He desires to have intimate fellowship with us and that we would live with Him forever.

He also sent us a Savior so we can be freely forgiven for anything we do wrong.  Jesus is the exact image of God, the exact representation of His person.  If you want to know what God is like, look at Jesus.  He is one with the Father.  He never did anything wrong, He never once sinned, and He came to Earth to serve and not be served.  He freely sacrificed His life and took the punishment for our sins.  Jesus is the perfect model for human behavior.  He taught His disciples to love God and all people, to meet them where they were at and to live sacrificially for the benefit of others.

(May 4, 2020 at 11:23 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote:
(May 4, 2020 at 10:57 pm)cleansed Wrote: I didn't know anything about Jesus until I started to seek God out.  My mom was an ex-catholic, but that was from her childhood.  She never brought up God or practiced religion, and we as a family never went to church or talked about God.

-and if she were an ex-hindu...you'd have found ganesh.  It's really not at all remarkable that people find religion, and even less remarkable when they find the religion of their parents.  

If you'd told us how you came from a catholic family, beat on the clouds, and heard the voice of Tlaloc clear as day...that would be surprising.
That happens to Muslims all the time.  Put muslim finds Jesus into YouTube and you will find endless testimonies of Muslims finding Christ through dreams and visions, contrary to their beliefs and the teachings of Islam.  It happens to Hindus as well.  And Jews.  The testimonies are endless and if you listen to them you'll see the pattern isn't where you are born or what you are predisposed to believe.  The pattern is that when people seek God in sincerity they find Christ.  As for me you are making that connection but there was no connection.  I had no awareness of Christianity until I started seeking God, and I only started seeking God because of certain things that happened in my life that I couldn't explain except that there was a God out there.  I had no idea who He was.
~Jesus didn't come to make bad people good.  He came to make dead people alive~
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#98
RE: Converting
A persons faith is overwhelmingly predicted by their birth. As you talk about muslims and hindus finding christ - recall that this is only remarkable because it isn't common. Your experience, otoh, is.

You had some ideas about gods. There's no point in bickering about this. It's okay for you to have known who jesus was..before you found jesus.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#99
RE: Converting
cleansed Wrote:I believe because I have found everything God has said to be true.  I believe the testimony of scripture which declares Jesus to be our Messiah

Yeah, it is hard to read this and expect there is a serious person writing these lines. I mean take Old Testament - it's all lies. None of the things described there ever happened like Adam & Eve, Samson killing the whole Philistine army with the jaw of an ass or Moses leading 100k people across the sea and desert. And the New Testament isn’t much better.

And if you believe those things came from God whispering it to people than the conclusion that God is a liar is inevitable.

And to say that scriptures are true is like saying Snow White is true, or Mahabharata is True, or Koran is true – they’re all fairytales at best, but lies in reality.

cleansed Wrote:The truth is that God is love, that He abounding in loving kindness.

It doesn’t much look like God is love when you go to the children’s hospital. Or read parts of the Bible like Genesis 3:16 To the woman he said, “I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.” – sounds like God doesn’t love women very much.

In Leviticus 18:22 sounds like God doesn’t love gays, for he orders “‘Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable. -- sounds like a hate to me.

And so on.

cleansed Wrote:He freely gives us this Earth and everything in it to enjoy.  He gives us air to breathe, water to drink, a mind to dream and imagine, legs to walk and arms to hug our loved ones.

He also gives us Coronavirus, plague, tsunamis that kill 300k people at once, earthquakes, AIDS, newborn babies who must go to chemotherapy because they have cancer…

cleansed Wrote:If you want to know what God is like, look at Jesus.  He is one with the Father.

That depends on which parts of the Bible you read. For instance, in Matthew 27:46 Jesus cried out on the cross, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" That hardly sounds like they are one.

cleansed Wrote:He never did anything wrong, He never once sinned, and He came to Earth to serve and not be served.  He freely sacrificed His life and took the punishment for our sins.

Well, there you go. You just said Jesus’ sin, which is suicide. Jesus killed himself and yet suicide is supposedly a sin. And not just that, by his suicide he created “Christ-Killers” or centuries of Christian hate toward the Jews that only ended in 1960s. I mean take the year 1298, when a priest spread the host-nailing story in Nuremberg, and 628 Jews were killed, including Mordecai ben Hillel, the famous scholar – easy as that.

Or do you know what this is and who made those pictures and why?
[Image: blood.jpg]

cleansed Wrote:That happens to Muslims all the time.  Put muslim finds Jesus into YouTube and you will find endless testimonies of Muslims finding Christ through dreams and visions, contrary to their beliefs and the teachings of Islam.  It happens to Hindus as well.  And Jews.  The testimonies are endless and if you listen to them you'll see the pattern isn't where you are born or what you are predisposed to believe.  The pattern is that when people seek God in sincerity they find Christ.

And you will also find Christians who found Allah and Christians who claimed to have empty spiritual lives until they embraced Scientology. So does that prove to you anything? Or if I told you that there are more Christians leaving Christianity to be atheists than Muslims leaving Islam to be Christians would that mean anything to you?
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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