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[Quranic Reflection]: Women have the right to state their own rights in the marriage
#11
RE: [Quranic Reflection]: Women have the right to state their own rights in the marriage
(June 27, 2020 at 2:30 pm)Deesse23 Wrote:
(June 27, 2020 at 2:27 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: I see. I think I see. A Muslim man can beat his wife with impunity, but if he violates a contract, THEN law enforcement becomes involved.

Cop: Your wife says you beat her with a club, and the beating left her with facial lacerations, broken bones, and internal injuries. Is this true?

Man: Yes, but there’s no contract forbidding me to do so.

Cop: Sorry to have bothered you, sir. Have a nice day.

Boru

The contract he is talking about is the marriage contract.

Which most Muslim women are not permitted to read before signing it.

But my point was that Winter seems to be saying that the ONLY reason for law enforcement to be involved in domestic abuse is if it’s done in violation of a contract. In other words, if a particular contract doesn’t prohibit wife-beating, it isn’t a crime.

Boru
‘Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.’ Ralph Waldo Emerson
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#12
RE: [Quranic Reflection]: Women have the right to state their own rights in the marriage
(June 27, 2020 at 2:36 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:
(June 27, 2020 at 2:30 pm)Deesse23 Wrote: The contract he is talking about is the marriage contract.

Which most Muslim women are not permitted to read before signing it.

But my point was that Winter seems to be saying that the ONLY reason for law enforcement to be involved in domestic abuse is if it’s done in violation of a contract. In other words, if a particular contract doesn’t prohibit wife-beating, it isn’t a crime.

Boru

I think his point is (and it shows Allah to be pretty much redundant):

Man and woman make (marriage) contract, required by Allah, in order to provide some "law and order", particularly to the wife
If the man beats her its optional to "settle" the dispute or get a divorce. Allah is not requesting this, but recommending.
Now if Allah is doing nothing while the man keeps beating his wife, who is gonna save the wife from abuse?
Atlass´ answer: "law enforcement" who punishes the man for violating the "contract".

But, where does law enforcement come from? Certainly not from Allah. Saving the wife is completely optional for him, as Atlass has shown. Now if we need man to set up law enforcement, while Allah cosiders the most basic rules of law and order to be optional, what is Allah good for? From todays point of view we already know not to beat up our wifes, and that a woman should be allowed to file for divorce, dont we? Its humans´ job to bring justice upon the couple. Allah is completely unnecessary, at least nowadays. And back then he didnt help either, because, although being the motherfucking creator of everything, he didnt bother to make basic rule of law mandatory.

What good is requesting a couple to make a contract about their partnership, when violating the contract is not to be punished? A law (and lawgiver) that is not enforced is useless.

Yes Islam was giving women more rights than they had back then. But its still backwards compared with what we know about ethics and morality as of today. Same for so many other ancient societies, books and ideologies. Why not make threads about those? Because Atlass is a narrowminded preacher who doesnt give a fuck about anything other than his own holy book.

Aside from that, you are correct. Shouldnt be beating up people be covered by some more generic law, enforced by Allah, not by man? Does that have to be mentioned in the context of marriage specifically? Sounds almost as if beating up people was "ok" under certain, other, circumstances.
Cetero censeo religionem delendam esse
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#13
RE: [Quranic Reflection]: Women have the right to state their own rights in the marriage
(June 27, 2020 at 2:57 pm)Deesse23 Wrote: Yes Islam was giving women more rights than they had back then.

Sex slaves and polygamy, I don't think so. But what is more curious, or not because WinterHold is dishonest, is that he didn't address the most notorious verse in Koran about wife beating and that is 4:34

"Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand."

Where you can see that Koran tells husbands to beat their wives if they are disobedient.

And if we look what Koranic scholars say about it, like Syed Mahmud Allusi in the commentaries: "if she refuses to beautify herself for him," if she refuses sex when he asks for it, if she refuses to pray or perform ritual ablutions, and "if she goes out of the house without a valid excuse." 

And this has influence on Muslims. In 2005, when Chad tried to institute a new family law that would outlaw wife beating, Muslim clerics protested that the measure was un-Islamic. https://www.thenewhumanitarian.org/featu...omen-equal
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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#14
RE: [Quranic Reflection]: Women have the right to state their own rights in the marriage
Up to the time of Islam, infanticide was pretty common. Killing the baby because it was a girl. Islam did away with that.

Not a very high bar to cross however, and hopelessly backwards by 21st century standards.
Cetero censeo religionem delendam esse
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#15
RE: [Quranic Reflection]: Women have the right to state their own rights in the marriage
It's just so deliciously funny to watch Winter try to westernize his magic book to our modern sensibilities.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#16
RE: [Quranic Reflection]: Women have the right to state their own rights in the marriage
(June 28, 2020 at 4:43 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: It's just so deliciously funny to watch Winter try to westernize his magic book to our modern sensibilities.

Bar chopping limbs off for minor crimes though.
Cetero censeo religionem delendam esse
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#17
RE: [Quranic Reflection]: Women have the right to state their own rights in the marriage
Heh, that one probably isn't all that hard to sell. If all you ever knew about islam was what these lying dawa cretins told you, you'd think an angry rural dad cooked it up in his basement. I suppose that is the point, after all.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#18
RE: [Quranic Reflection]: Women have the right to state their own rights in the marriage
It's great that many of the debates on Islam revolve around things like child marriage, slavery, sex slavery, Muhammad's wives, misogyny, torture, brutal death penalties, etc.

The more Muslim apologists defend these things the worse Islam looks.
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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#19
RE: [Quranic Reflection]: Women have the right to state their own rights in the marriage
(June 27, 2020 at 2:36 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:
(June 27, 2020 at 2:30 pm)Deesse23 Wrote: The contract he is talking about is the marriage contract.

Which most Muslim women are not permitted to read before signing it.

But my point was that Winter seems to be saying that the ONLY reason for law enforcement to be involved in domestic abuse is if it’s done in violation of a contract. In other words, if a particular contract doesn’t prohibit wife-beating, it isn’t a crime.

Boru

But I specified to you and to readers that the wife herself is a writer of the contract:

https://atheistforums.org/thread-61203-p...pid1985295

Quote:WinterHold said in the OP:

A wife can indeed make her husband not beat her for no reason or take her money with this settlement; and if a husband broke the wife's rules then he get punished with whatever she wrote in the contract of marriage.

In other words; the contract of marriage should include both the rights of the husband and the rights of the wife. And by verse 128 of Sura 4 the wife can state whatever rights she wants from the husband.
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#20
RE: [Quranic Reflection]: Women have the right to state their own rights in the marriage
Wasting your time here buddy. You need to go tell that to islamic wives.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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