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The United States of inclusivity
#11
RE: The United States of inclusivity
(December 6, 2020 at 2:07 am)Apollo Wrote: So I am watching The Alienist these days—a series showing pursuit of a series killer in 1896 New York City who exclusively kills boy-prostitutes dressed as girls.

Few episodes in and there is murder of a boy prostitute Ali who was dressing as Fatima, who was from Syria.

I am not an expert on US immigration, but I imagine that finding a Syrian in 1896 NYC are pretty marginal compared to finding an Italian or Irish immigrant. I am not saying it cannot happen but I think this contrivance has more to do with recent wave of Hollywood inclusivity than reality.
You’d be surprised. The first big wave of Syrian emigration to America started in 1889, New York was (and still is) the center of Syrian-American life. So, it actually makes sense that someone might find a Syrian in 1896 New York. And looking at the Alienist wiki for more information on Ali/Fatima, it turns out he’s not just some recent addition to the Alienist canon added for diversity-related reasons; he’s in the original book, and that was published in 1994! And back then, the only prominent American media that focused on Arabs was Disney’s Aladdin!
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#12
RE: The United States of inclusivity
(December 6, 2020 at 7:42 pm)Belacqua Wrote:
(December 6, 2020 at 7:37 pm)Chas Wrote: I can't enjoy a Shakespeare play where English nobles are played by non-Caucasians.  It's simply too jarring and distracting. 

Your mileage may vary.

No one can enjoy Shakespeare plays where Italian people speak English. It just isn't realistic.

I can enjoy them, and it's perfectly reasonable that the Italian characters speak English - Shakespeare was writing for an English audience. 

 If you claim that you 'can't enjoy' a piece because the Italians speak English or the Dutch speak French or the Swedes speak Spanish, you're cutting yourself off from every piece of literature ever translated. THAT'S what isn't realistic.

Boru
‘Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.’ Ralph Waldo Emerson
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#13
RE: The United States of inclusivity
There are few key points raised here in various responses:

1- Profit: Yes, Hollywood like any other business runs for profit—but by the same virtue, as business, it does too take risks for greater far reaching delayed profits for innovating stories around themes that catch up eventually or are at the cusp of pop culture awareness. Take homosexuality for example—throughout 70’s and 80’, and later on on shows like seinfeld, will and grace, glee etc, norms and minds had change of heart. Now homosexuality is not as much a taboo as what it used to be.

Entertainment industry plays a big role in informing our cultural sensibilities, not just in US but also globally.

2- Inclusivity: Like i said, inclusivity is great but it can also come at the cost of other marginalized minority within a minority—take Muslim women and hijab for example. How many times have you seen movies/media/political campaigns representing Muslim women without hijab? Every time media needs a token muslim representation, you see a hijabi. Most of the Muslim women in US and in many islamic countries do not wear hijab. It’s more predominant in fascist patriarchal countries like Iran and Saudia etc. Hijab has always been used to push a culture of modesty and submission for women to patriarchy along with being used as slut shaming etc. This poses a great hurdle to women empowerment but yet you’ll see media using this token inclusivity stunt that as consequences normalizes hijab and presents a rosy picture of it.

We live in a society where black facing or confederate flags raise such outrage, rightly so, but we completely overlook the irony or Linda Sarsour organizing women march with hijab on. It’s like going to BLM rally with black-facing.

So while I am all for inclusivity, at the same time I am against token inclusivity at the cost of critical thinking or normalizing ideas you’d otherwise criticize under the banner of objective liberalism.

The majority shouldn’t have to pander to a minority’s anti-liberal or anti-equal/human rights for the sake of acceptance or pluralism.
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#14
RE: The United States of inclusivity
(December 6, 2020 at 7:42 pm)Belacqua Wrote:
(December 6, 2020 at 7:37 pm)Chas Wrote: I can't enjoy a Shakespeare play where English nobles are played by non-Caucasians.  It's simply too jarring and distracting. 

Your mileage may vary.

No one can enjoy Shakespeare plays where Italian people speak English. It just isn't realistic.

I think you're missing the point.  That is the way the plays were written, and some Italians do in fact speak English.
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#15
RE: The United States of inclusivity
with their hands? Hehe
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#16
RE: The United States of inclusivity
(December 6, 2020 at 8:20 pm)Chas Wrote:
(December 6, 2020 at 7:42 pm)Belacqua Wrote: No one can enjoy Shakespeare plays where Italian people speak English. It just isn't realistic.

I think you're missing the point.  That is the way the plays were written, and some Italians do in fact speak English.

So Milanese sailors speaking Shakespearean English seems realistic to you, but Samir Bhamra playing Cymbeline would not be enjoyable.

(December 6, 2020 at 8:58 pm)░I░G░N░O░R░A░M░U░S ░ Wrote: with their hands? Hehe

Of course it's likely that teenagers from old Veronese aristocratic families would carry out their love affairs in Shakespearean English. Or so I'm told.
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#17
RE: The United States of inclusivity
(December 6, 2020 at 8:14 pm)Apollo Wrote: The majority shouldn’t have to pander to a minority’s anti-liberal or anti-equal/human rights for the sake of acceptance or pluralism.

Have you pandered today?  When was the last time you were forced to pander? For the sake of acceptance, pluralism, or anything else? I'm just trying to get a handle on the above. Is this something you worry will happen in a dystopian future, or is it a way to summarize your thoughts on muslim women wearing garbage bags of this or that description in film?
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#18
RE: The United States of inclusivity
(December 7, 2020 at 12:02 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote:
(December 6, 2020 at 8:14 pm)Apollo Wrote: The majority shouldn’t have to pander to a minority’s anti-liberal or anti-equal/human rights for the sake of acceptance or pluralism.

Have you pandered today?  When was the last time you were forced to pander? For the sake of acceptance, pluralism, or anything else? I'm just trying to get a handle on the above. Is this something you worry will happen in a dystopian future, or is it a way to summarize your thoughts on muslim women wearing garbage bags of this or that description in film?

Not sure what you mean. I already used an example vis a vis Linda Sarsour or using it as token representation of Muslim women.

When western liberals accept hijab as cultural practice without questioning what it symbolizes and how it is used to push patriarchy and even as gateway to punitive measures and violence across Muslim world, they pander.
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#19
RE: The United States of inclusivity
(December 7, 2020 at 1:50 am)Apollo Wrote: When western liberals accept hijab as cultural practice without questioning what it symbolizes and how it is used to push patriarchy and even as gateway to punitive measures and violence across Muslim world, they pander.

The meaning of a symbol is determined by the people who use the symbol. Western liberals don't decide the meaning.

If the women who choose to wear the hijab don't agree that it's a symbol of patriarchy and punitive measures, then it isn't.
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#20
RE: The United States of inclusivity
(December 7, 2020 at 2:04 am)Belacqua Wrote:
(December 7, 2020 at 1:50 am)Apollo Wrote: When western liberals accept hijab as cultural practice without questioning what it symbolizes and how it is used to push patriarchy and even as gateway to punitive measures and violence across Muslim world, they pander.

The meaning of a symbol is determined by the people who use the symbol. Western liberals don't decide the meaning.

If the women who choose to wear the hijab don't agree that it's a symbol of patriarchy and punitive measures, then it isn't.

So, if the Nazis think that the swastika is simply a symbol of national pride and not one of oppression and genocide, that makes it so?

Boru
‘Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.’ Ralph Waldo Emerson
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