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Was the condemnation of man justified?
#21
RE: Was the condemnation of man justified?
(December 7, 2020 at 3:09 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: Was the condemnation of man justified?

If not justified, Jesus was not required to ask us to do evil by accepting human sacrifice.

I do not recall any of my many sins ever being bad enough to earn condemnation.
 
Every sin I, and likely you, ever made, has been forgiven.
 
For god to condemn me, and most of you, would be unjust.
 
I am innocent. Are you?
 
Regards
DL
Maybe they have been - maybe you're the worlds worst person...but even if you were, that wouldn't actually mean that someone else condemning you for it were in the moral clear, nor would being in the moral clear on that put vicarious redemption in the moral clear.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#22
RE: Was the condemnation of man justified?
OP, depends on the premises you're willing to accept as true.

If man is indeed trapped in sin, and God is just and all that jazz, then one could argue that the condemnation of man is indeed justified. And for the Christian, the way out is via a redemptive act by the divine.
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#23
RE: Was the condemnation of man justified?
(December 8, 2020 at 4:06 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote:
(December 7, 2020 at 3:09 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: Was the condemnation of man justified?

If not justified, Jesus was not required to ask us to do evil by accepting human sacrifice.

I do not recall any of my many sins ever being bad enough to earn condemnation.
 
Every sin I, and likely you, ever made, has been forgiven.
 
For god to condemn me, and most of you, would be unjust.
 
I am innocent. Are you?
 
Regards
DL
Maybe they have been - maybe you're the worlds worst person...but even if you were, that wouldn't actually mean that someone else condemning you for it were in the moral clear, nor would being in the moral clear on that put vicarious redemption in the moral clear.
To many Christians, given that the intelligentsia, old and new, called Gnostic Christians the only good Christians, that would make me quite evil to the less than good Christians.

I do mot recognize a need for my redemption. The only thing I have ever wanted to be saved from was thinking in the immoral way Christians do.

Regards
DL

(December 8, 2020 at 4:08 pm)Grandizer Wrote: OP, depends on the premises you're willing to accept as true.

If man is indeed trapped in sin, and God is just and all that jazz, then one could argue that the condemnation of man is indeed justified. And for the Christian, the way out is via a redemptive act by the divine.

That premise is what Christians have a problem with. 

They bad mouth sin, while contradicting themselves by singing that Adam's sin was a happy fault and necessary to god's plan.

If necessary to god, one would think that the god people would be all in for sin.

They are too poorly educated to be able to do apologetics from their own dogma. 

Nature created us to sin or do evil to losers when we compete, but if we did not compete as we evolve, our evolution would end and we would likely go extinct.

Regards
DL
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#24
RE: Was the condemnation of man justified?
(December 8, 2020 at 5:00 pm)Greatest I am Wrote:
(December 8, 2020 at 4:06 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Maybe they have been - maybe you're the worlds worst person...but even if you were, that wouldn't actually mean that someone else condemning you for it were in the moral clear, nor would being in the moral clear on that put vicarious redemption in the moral clear.
To many Christians, given that the intelligentsia, old and new, called Gnostic Christians the only good Christians, that would make me quite evil to the less than good Christians.

I do mot recognize a need for my redemption. The only thing I have ever wanted to be saved from was thinking in the immoral way Christians do.

Regards
DL
So much for meeting the proposition on it's own grounds, eh?

Whether you recognize a need (or in fact do not possess any need) wouldn't affect those other articles either. Sometimes we don't need the things that we do get, which are good. Ultimately, there's nothing about human beings that could provide a god with the warrant we're considering. Just as no fact about me morally justifies your own personal decisions.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#25
RE: Was the condemnation of man justified?
(December 8, 2020 at 5:19 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote:
(December 8, 2020 at 5:00 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: To many Christians, given that the intelligentsia, old and new, called Gnostic Christians the only good Christians, that would make me quite evil to the less than good Christians.

I do mot recognize a need for my redemption. The only thing I have ever wanted to be saved from was thinking in the immoral way Christians do.

Regards
DL
So much for meeting the proposition on it's own grounds, eh?

Whether you recognize a need (or in fact do not possess any need) wouldn't affect those other articles either.  Sometimes we don't need the things that we do get, which are good.  Ultimately, there's nothing about human beings that could provide a god with the warrant we're considering.  Just as no fact about me morally justifies your own personal decisions.

I am Franglais. French in an English world. Do you expect that I would understand language as you do?

Especially when you are school taught and i am self-taught?

Why speak to the obvious, especially to you. Perhaps an assumption I should not have made.

I could just do this.

Bishop John Shelby Spong: Why Atonement Theology will Kill Christianity - YouTube

As to your last. You sell us all short as we all effect each others thinking.

Regards
DL
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#26
RE: Was the condemnation of man justified?
Facts about another person may be a well ordered series of proximate causes and their effects, real or imagined.  He pissed me off, so I hit him.  He makes me happy, so I gave him all the kingdoms of the world.  I couldn't change him, so I killed the better man.  These may be facts.  Their relevance to the moral fact of the matter, however, can be expressed as;

He pissed me off, so I hit him -and it was a moral act
He pissed me off, so I hit him -and it was an immoral act.

The facts as stated, the effect that people can have - and the action taken by the agent, are ambiguous.  We would have to inquire about other facts to comment on the moral nature of the agent or whether the second (or third) party deserved what he got.  Simply put, nothing about us being bad can certify another moral agent's status.  We could both be the bad guys in a given scenario.  Nothing about us being good certifies that we deserve whatever another agent has given us.  As a point of theological fact, christians maintain that we are not getting what we deserve when god rewards us or when god saves us, whether we're (comparatively) good or bad.  Nothing about our depravity rubber stamps a plan to kill the other guy.  He and we may both be the bad guys, and it may be that neither of us is getting what we deserve.

Supposing that we do need redemption, and that god does redeem in the manner described - then we have an immoral agent referencing irrelevant facts of a second party in service of their murderous scheme to abrogate moral responsibility by killing a third.

-and because I love to ramble about this shit....

Yes, it's silly, very silly - but it's understandable. Especially placed in the context of how the authors of the myth saw the world and man. Cursed by a god having found them naked in the bushes knowing their nakedness. Lying and hiding of shame. Consigned to a life of toil and service and pain and labor. Subject to sin, and to death.

That's how things are*. How should things be, though? Maybe it would be better if people got better than they deserved. Maybe a loving god has a plan for us to escape this curse. Maybe a deal can be made. Laying aside any reservations about these specific claims..what we see is the expression of hope. A very human thing. The people who came up with the myth didn't live it out. They were post diaspora clerks seeking to return to a golden age myth of the late bronze and early iron age, and expressing that desire for how things should be in their religious traditions by reference to an even more ancient and more mythical past - the initiating circumstance of their then-present predicament. Christians would expand on this theme, enfranchising a greater number of more diverse people into the people of god, and under gods grace.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#27
RE: Was the condemnation of man justified?
(December 7, 2020 at 3:09 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: Was the condemnation of man justified?
i think you have a medieval understanding of condemnation. you see morality and condemation as a measure of self value or worth in relation to a standard you will never measure up to. when in fact sin or the identification of sin in a person is handled by God more like how we handle an infection or virus.
 
Quote:If not justified, Jesus was not required to ask us to do evil by accepting human sacrifice.
 
his sacrifice was the only thing that would yield a vaccine/cure. all God then required to have access to this vaccine/cure is simply acknowledgement of the cost, and who provided it.
Quote:I do not recall any of my many sins ever being bad enough to earn condemnation.
 
this is why i said God sees sin more like how we handle a virus. God is not concerned in how or what mild activity you were doing when you contracted the virus, just the fact that you test positive. if you test positive you must then be 'cleansed' of the infection before you are allowed to go in with those who are not infected/heaven.
Quote:Every sin I, and likely you, ever made, has been forgiven.
 
yes there is a cure for every sin. but to have access to it God asks that you first respect the one who provided this gift to you.
Quote:For god to condemn me, and most of you, would be unjust.
 
only to the unjust. for me who have been cured it would be unjust that God allowed the infected to comingle with the uninfected.
Quote:I am innocent. Are you?
 
Regards
DL
innocents has nothing to do with infection .
you are infected who cares why. bottom line is your infection will consume you and those around you if not treated.
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#28
RE: Was the condemnation of man justified?
(January 7, 2021 at 4:35 pm)Drich Wrote:
(December 7, 2020 at 3:09 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: Was the condemnation of man justified?
i think you have a medieval understanding of condemnation. you see morality and condemation as a measure of self value or worth in relation to a standard you will never measure up to. when in fact sin or the identification of sin in a person is handled by God more like how we handle an infection or virus.
 
Quote:If not justified, Jesus was not required to ask us to do evil by accepting human sacrifice.
 
his sacrifice was the only thing that would yield a vaccine/cure. all God then required to have access to this vaccine/cure is simply acknowledgement of the cost, and who provided it.

The creator of the universe can only cure some mass psychic infection by using blood magic?
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#29
RE: Was the condemnation of man justified?
(December 7, 2020 at 3:09 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: Was the condemnation of man justified?
 

If you're referring to Eden, then no. God kicked the puppy.

Gen. 3:22 clears that up.
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#30
RE: Was the condemnation of man justified?
The becoming like one of us rationale. Take a step outside of peoples superstitious beliefs and remember that the people writing that had been fucked by one god king after another and ask yourself why they might think that a man becoming like a god would be a bad thing.

Do we really disagree? The underlying moral contention - which is what sacred narratives are about, is that it is imperative that some things not be possible for man, given our nature. Given what we have already been seen to have done. When we criticize the theists gods for acting like the picture of a psychotically powerful human being, we're expressing the same sentiment. That there's something wrong with that, that it would be bad for a person to be like a god, or..vv, for a god to be like a person.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply



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