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What does "Separation of Church and State" mean?
#1
What does "Separation of Church and State" mean?
Mind everyone, this is really speaking in general terms not any specific debate or SCOTUS case. 

I have noticed even on the left, that some don't understand what the Supreme Court says about the First Amendment and what "separation of church and state" actually means. It does not say that religious people cannot participate in government, they can. What they do say at the same time however, is that the government cannot set up a social pecking order based on religion and prevent different religions or sects from preforming the same ceremonies that a majority may do. This is separate than religion in schools that I am talking about here.

For example, if Congress allows a Catholic Chaplain to give an invocation, they have to let a Jewish holy person or Muslim or Buddhist to have the ability to do the same. Same with the Military. If you allow for a Catholic and Baptist Chaplain, you have to allow for a Muslim or Jewish or Buddhist Chaplain. Not sure what they provide atheists in the military though. I do know my stint at Air Force basic, they did violate my rights by saying, "you either go to Church, or peal potatos". It was a punishment and should not exist in any branch of the Military. 

But what ends up happening when minorities have sued to have those same rights(not so much congress, but more on the local level, if the majority doesn't like the outcome of that case that sides with that minority, the majority usually throws a fit and scraps the ceremony for everyone, then blames the minority sect/religion for wanting equal rights.

But with schools it is different. With schools prayer isn't banned. A student can pray say before a test, or before a game. But what the teachers and staff cannot do is force the students to pray to any god. Prayer in that context has to be strictly voluntary without any group pressure or force. But my personal view on students, even with students, I don't think they should be forming religious clubs or conducting group prayer even if not staffed lead or forced. That basically puts any minority in the position of peer pressure or even being bullied. 

And especially with the oath of office outside of mere ceremony. I really get pissed at the far right nuts, especially those in congress who scream that someone outside there religion has to be forced to swear on a bible to their Christian God. "No Religious Test" does not say only atheists can hold office. It merely means that society cannot prevent someone seeking an office from holding that office based on a religious test. The person seeking that office still has to convince enough people to vote for them though. 

Personally, I wish all the ceremonial religious stuff should be left out of government because it always ends up dividing people. There is always going to be someone, or some group of people mad that others are interjecting religious ceremony into open up a session and object to it. But the reality is there is no ban, say outside public school settings that prevents someone from giving a religious invocation, be it at a city council, state congress or Capital Hill in DC. 

I brought this up because every so often, and it happened again on Twitter again today, asking why a Chaplain even exists in Congress. There is what one wishes people should avoid, and the reality that the law allows for it. So the only argument one can make is making the law equal for everyone. If the law says you can have a ceremonial invocation to start off a session of Congress, then your choices are to let others do it too, or agree to simply skip it. But since that won't happen, then you have to let a variety of others to do the same. 

I feel about Chaplains in Congress the same way I do about the National Anthem at sporting events, just skip it. If we are a pluralistic society, and laws are to be equal for everyone, why start a session off promoting one religion over another? Just like the National Anthem, America values vary from individual to individual, but our nations still remains pluralistic.
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#2
RE: What does "Separation of Church and State" mean?
"Separation of Church and State" is not in the US Constitutuon.

It comes from a letter in 1802 from Thomas Jefferson.


...
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#3
RE: What does "Separation of Church and State" mean?
Easy to miss, it's only the very first thing in the bill of rights.......
Quote:(Amendment I.) [RELIGION; SPEECH; PRESS; ASSEMBLAGE; PETITION]
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#4
RE: What does "Separation of Church and State" mean?
(February 24, 2021 at 2:43 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Easy to miss, it's only the very first thing in the bill of rights.......
Quote:(Amendment I.) [RELIGION; SPEECH; PRESS; ASSEMBLAGE; PETITION]
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

The theocratic right takes "free exercise" as meaning, "only when we do it, all others take a back seat."
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#5
RE: What does "Separation of Church and State" mean?
The theocratic right doesn't believe in the constitution, news at 11. Ultimately, separation of church and state means very little in this state.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#6
RE: What does "Separation of Church and State" mean?
(February 24, 2021 at 2:43 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Easy to miss, it's only the very first thing in the bill of rights.......
Quote:(Amendment I.) [RELIGION; SPEECH; PRESS; ASSEMBLAGE; PETITION]
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Can't read, eh?


Where is the term "Separation of Church and State"?



Hint: it's not there....
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#7
RE: What does "Separation of Church and State" mean?
(February 24, 2021 at 2:40 pm)onlinebiker Wrote: "Separation of Church and State" is not in the US Constitutuon.

It comes from a letter in 1802 from Thomas Jefferson.


...

NO KIDDING!

Show me where I claimed it was. I meant that in relationship to the SCOTUS cases in relationship as to how the judges squared that with the First Amendment. Sorry if you misunderstood my post.  

The word "clause" is also not physically written in the First Amendment in ink either. Jefferson's idea of "Separation of Church and State" and "establishment clause" were still argued in court cases referring to the First Amendment.
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#8
RE: What does "Separation of Church and State" mean?
‘Separation of church and state’ means, in broadest terms, that the two coexist without either one having authority over the other. Of course, this applies only in a perfect world.

In reality, it means that the state cannot promulgate laws regulating religion (though they frequently do) and religious organisations (not individuals) have no business meddling in affairs of state (though this seems to happen with alarming regularity).

Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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#9
RE: What does "Separation of Church and State" mean?
(February 24, 2021 at 3:09 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: ‘Separation of church and state’ means, in broadest terms, that the two coexist without either one having authority over the other. Of course, this applies only in a perfect world.

In reality, it means that the state cannot promulgate laws regulating religion (though they frequently do) and religious organisations (not individuals) have no business meddling in affairs of state (though this seems to happen with alarming regularity).

Boru

Applying "Separation of Church And State" and "establishment clause" has always been a mixed bag in court cases. And the religious right forever has made many attempts in courts to justify a social pecking order using "free exercise" as their argument. It is also why while things like Roe V Wade, while long standing established law, has been attacked by the GOP and in many locations severely hindered access. They don't always use "God is against abortion" in court cases, but nobody is stupid enough to claim it is a secular argument when it is clearly a majority religious right argument.
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#10
RE: What does "Separation of Church and State" mean?
Separation of Church and State means the Church can tell the State what to do, but not vice versa. If the vice was versa the State could tell the Church to stop harboring pedophiles.
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