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The Watchmaker: my fav argument
#11
RE: The Watchmaker: my fav argument
Theists don't care about arguments. They only make them so they can attack non-believers with claims of irrationality. Present an ironclad argument against God and they just ignore it.
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#12
RE: The Watchmaker: my fav argument
(February 27, 2021 at 5:49 pm)Angrboda Wrote: Theists don't care about arguments.  They only make them so they can attack non-believers with claims of irrationality.  Present an ironclad argument against God and they just ignore it.

Haven't you seen the results of the 25,000 polygraph tests? Repent now woman!
I don't have an anger problem, I have an idiot problem.
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#13
RE: The Watchmaker: my fav argument
A guy finds a watch on the beach. He takes it home and finds out it was made in Switzerland five years ago. He finds the company that manufactured it and went through and identified all the parts and each company that made each part. He identified all the raw materials each part was made from and the mines or areas around the world where the raw materials where taken from the ground.

Which came first, the natural raw materials or the man made companies ?

Answer - the raw materials.

So nature exists before intelligence
Intelligence shapes existing natural elements to make something man made.

And if we look at the origins of intelligence, we again see that nature must be present first in order for intelligent biological life to exist.

In other words, a baby cannot create it's mother.
Insanity - Doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result
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#14
RE: The Watchmaker: my fav argument
The biggest difference between living beings and the watch is the nature of the atoms on which they are primarily based.

Atoms of carbon, hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen can self-assemble into complex molecules through natural order. The atoms comprising the watch cannot.

The watchmaker argument seems logical on the surface but if examined closely, one can see a false equivalence.
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.

Albert Einstein
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#15
RE: The Watchmaker: my fav argument
I forget who said it but to paraphrase it badly; You found a watch in a forest of watches in a world of watches, You just think the one you found is special.
"For the only way to eternal glory is a life lived in service of our Lord, FSM; Verily it is FSM who is the perfect being the name higher than all names, king of all kings and will bestow upon us all, one day, The great reclaiming"  -The Prophet Boiardi-

      Conservative trigger warning.
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#16
RE: The Watchmaker: my fav argument
First of all, complexity it not the hallmark of design. We detect design by contrasting it with things that naturally occur.

Humans, cells, trees, DNA, etc., etc., are all things that naturally occur.

Second, we know watches, or buildings, or a 747, or a painting, or whatever other non-naturally occurring object a theist wants to stick in their failed analogy, because we have a history of of those things being designed. I can look up plans for buildings, watches, and planes on the Internet. I can talk to aeronautical engineers, architects, and horologists and discuss airplane, building and watch design.

Who can I talk to about cell 'design', or the 'design' of complete organisms?

You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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#17
RE: The Watchmaker: my fav argument
And another reason why the watchmaker argument completely fails, is that theists claim that their god designed everything.

So, when they say, they find a watch on the beach, or in the forest or wherever, their failed analogy has them walking past example after example of 'watches' (after all, god designed everything, right, including the sand, rocks, seaweed, trees, etc., etc.). And they pick up the one thing (the watch) that everyone that has been exposed to watches, agrees has been designed, and that's what they use as their example to compare to cells, DNA, humans, etc,.

The argument doesn't sound so impressive if stated like this: "Anyone finding a watch pinecone in a forest will recognize that it was designed intelligently; living beings are similarly complex, and must be the work of an intelligent designer". But don't theists also believe that the pinecone was designed by their god also?

And yet another failure. The watchmaker is more complex than the watch. If complexity proves intelligent design, then the question arises who designed such a complex watchmaker?

You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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#18
RE: The Watchmaker: my fav argument
That's obvious! The Super-Watchmaker!

Just like with God; Super-God built him.

To answer your next question...

Same pattern only now Ultra!
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#19
RE: The Watchmaker: my fav argument
Quote:And another reason why the watchmaker argument completely fails, is that theists claim that their god designed everything.

That is a failure of a specific argument for a specific watchmaker who is, himself, not a made watch.

If you assert the existence of infinite watchmakers going all the way up (and perhaps down, we are made watches who make watches which, maybe someday, will be sufficiently advanced to make their own watches), it's not failing until you add excess complexity by further asserting extra qualities to our watchmaker.
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#20
RE: The Watchmaker: my fav argument
The watchmaker argument makes about as little sense as the whirlwind-in-a-junkyard argument, but they share the similarity of admitting that the arguer has a profound ignorance about evolution.

Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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