The Watchmaker: my fav argument

[The Grand Nudger]

You may not be able to say as much, but I can, with no need for omniscience. If I murder you and then give you a lollipop, that doesn't change the fact that I murdered you.

Perhaps your silly god should have worked more on better lives and less on murder? It's pointless to complain about your inability to handle the problem of evil with me, as, between us, there isn't one. You've proposed an evil and incompetent god, and in that context, evil is not a problem at all. At least not for that evil and incompetent gods existence. It would be rather the opposite. Positing an evil and incompetent designer and then pointing to the evil and incompetent designs in nature is a fit.

Fallen worlds and off site modifications...tell me what about -this- world appears to you to be designed, again?

[R00tKiT]

You may not be able to say as much, but I can, with no need for omniscience.  If I murder you and then give you a lollipop, that doesn't change the fact that I murdered you.

I am fine with being given a lollipop for eternity whereas the murderer rots in hell for the same amount of time......

You?

It's pointless to complain about your inability to handle the problem of evil with me, as, between us, there isn't one.

I don't have to "handle" the problem of evil with you. Professional philosophers did and resolved it quite convincingly.

You've proposed an evil and incompetent god, and in that context, evil is not a problem at all.  At least not for that evil and incompetent gods existence.  It would be rather the opposite.  Positing an evil and incompetent designer and then pointing to the evil and incompetent designs in nature is a fit.

I am not sure what your definition of competence is, can you elaborate ? It's true that evil is not a problem for an evil god. But you're kind of begging the question, you have to first prove that it is evil, that is, that no good can ever come out of it. Also, you should take free will into account.

[John 6IX Breezy]

I think the word "perfect" can probably be applied in two ways. If we talk about "a perfect circle," it means that the example we have in mind meets exactly a precise definition. But if we say "a perfect cup of coffee," we mean that it has the all qualities we like in coffee and none of those we don't. The first usage can't be debated. But the second is based on desire, and if someone disagrees we have no objective grounds for argument. 

Right; I think the second example is the best: Perfection would mean "everything as intended."

[Silver]

You have burden of proof ass backwards.

The theist has to prove the God of the Bible is real.

Any reader with adequate critical thinking skills can see that the God character within is evil.

[The Grand Nudger]

You may not be able to say as much, but I can, with no need for omniscience.  If I murder you and then give you a lollipop, that doesn't change the fact that I murdered you.

I am fine with being given a lollipop for eternity whereas the murderer rots in hell for the same amount of time......

You?

Here in the US, we tend to deal with murder harshly no matter how many lollipops a given murderer hands out, and even if there are people who really like his lollipops and think he's a swell guy, and even if he murdered a murderer or two between killing children.

I don't have to "handle" the problem of evil with you. Professional philosophers did and resolved it quite convincingly.

Perhaps you should share their wisdom with our christian friend, he's struggling.

I am not sure what your definition of competence is, can you elaborate ? It's true that evil is not a problem for an evil god. But you're kind of begging the question, you have to first prove that it is evil, that is, that no good can ever come out of it. Also, you should take free will into account.

I don't have to prove a damned thing.  It was a proposal from our christian friend.  An evil and incompetent god.  Perhaps you should ask him? Take free will into account? My having (or not having) free will doesn't have anything to do with whether or not my neighbor is competent, so I'm guessing our free will and any gods competence are likewise separate. Similarly, any acts moral nature and that acts practical outcome are not the same. A moustache twirling villain ties a virgin to the tracks. The train stops to avoid hitting her just before it would have derailed on a blind turn at full speed. Good intentions, bad intentions, best laid plans, all that jazz.

Frankly, this is a better analog for god than any designer. A bumbling idiot committed to doing shitty things that somehow fucks that up and leads to much better ends by way of divine accident and hard human work.

---

I think the word "perfect" can probably be applied in two ways. If we talk about "a perfect circle," it means that the example we have in mind meets exactly a precise definition. But if we say "a perfect cup of coffee," we mean that it has the all qualities we like in coffee and none of those we don't. The first usage can't be debated. But the second is based on desire, and if someone disagrees we have no objective grounds for argument. 

Right; I think the second example is the best: Perfection would mean "everything as intended."

Is this world what god intended, then? We could modify the proposal to competent evil, if you'd like.

[arewethereyet]

I think the word "perfect" can probably be applied in two ways. If we talk about "a perfect circle," it means that the example we have in mind meets exactly a precise definition. But if we say "a perfect cup of coffee," we mean that it has the all qualities we like in coffee and none of those we don't. The first usage can't be debated. But the second is based on desire, and if someone disagrees we have no objective grounds for argument. 

Right; I think the second example is the best: Perfection would mean "everything as intended."

Everything as intended by who and for who?

[The Grand Nudger]

By god for god would be the only requirements of competence. If this is the kind of world that gives it a chubby, and it sets out to create such a world, and accomplishes that task - then it's perfect in the empty and soulless way that's important to any given death cultist.

It's never not projection with these nutbars. They think that other people think this way...because they do. Somebody mentions a horrible thing, and the nutbar immediately launches some subjective argument over preferences, setting the bloodgod on the side of preferring that thing for one reason or another and humans as simply not preferring it. A psychopathic god for sociopathic people that appear to be even more poorly designed than the rest of us.

-unless, ofc, this is all working as intended.

[John 6IX Breezy]

Everything as intended by who and for who?

Anyone making anything.

[The Grand Nudger]

For example, if someone designed the water cycle so that they'd never have to show up to work, the water cycle we have would be a perfect™ design to that end. Same reason I use timed irrigation and pressure lifts.

[Fake Messiah]

Saying that God is perfect when he "creates" babies with cancer and without inner organs because we can't know his will is the end of the discussion because not only is all logic thrown out the window and anything can be evidence of of God's intelligent perfect design, but it also shows the obscenity of person who holds that opinion, it's really no different when William Lane Craig claimed that killing all those children in the old testament by God's orders was good for them because they went straight to heaven.
We are dealing here with people who would defend Hitler himself and his gas chambers if Bible said he was a good guy, and those butchers under God's orders in OT were not any better.