[Serious] The love of a God

[Foxaèr]

What parent hasn't lovingly said, This is going to hurt me more than it hurts you?

[Seax]

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This guy:
Humans are malicious, vicious, vindictive creatures, by extension so too are their bevy of fictitious gods.


Seax:
I find it ironic that humanists are often the most misanthropic of men.

Funny, I do not recall ever mentioning any interest in humanism.

Humans fucking suck! Plain and simple.

My mistake.

[Gwaithmir]

I find it ironic that humanists are often the most misanthropic of men.

As a humanist and philanthropist, I find that statement highly questionable.

[Ferrocyanide]

What parent hasn't lovingly said, This is going to hurt me more than it hurts you?

I haven't experienced that myself. Also, I was not a crazy kid however, I have broken a few things.

Anyway, I'm sure that there are a lot of parents that don't beat up their children.

--Ferrocyanide

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I had a friend bear his testimony to me today. He's someone who struggles with chronic pain and debilitating conditions, exacerbated by past injuries. He told me that when he was younger, he used to get irritated by people not moving fast enough around him and it caused him to feel a lot of contention and anger in his heart. So, he prayed to the Lord for patience. Then, not long after, he got into a terrible accident, injuring his spine and developed several other conditions that make it hard for him to move very fast. He said the Lord did this to/for him to help him learn empathy for those who used to frustrate him and to help him learn patience.

That's probably one of the things I'll have the hardest time getting over. This concept of pain and suffering being an example of God's lovingly delivered lessons. It makes me furiously angry to think about how much bad in my life I attributed to something I deserved and should be grateful for. I no longer believe there is a God but I am fiercely bitter over the indoctrination I received to believe that pain given to me by someone was love and for my benefit/for my own good. That suffering and tribulation were purifying and elevating tools because I was destined for a higher purpose.

I feel bad for my friend because his testimony, the thing that he feels empowered and enriched by, sounds like abuse.

This is what I would tell him:
We need to consider the various possibilities. We need to look at a diamond from every angle, not just the one that you chose for some random reason.
1. You got injured because some god decided to teach you a lesson
2. You got injured because you were being stupid on the road (I imagine that you meant that he got himself into a car accident). Let’s also assume the “god” character exists in possibility 2.
3.  You got injured because you were being stupid on the road and there are no gods at all.

How did you select possibility 1?
Did you learn your lesson? Sounds like you did. Why is your spine still injured? Was it part of the “god’s plan” to keep you that way the rest of your life? For what reason?

If Possibility 3 is correct, then you will never get better unless medical science makes some breakthroughs.

Let’s add another possibility.

4. The “god” character cares about your well being and repairs people.

I guess you are going to have to cross that off your list.

Maybe you are tempted to add another possibility to the list:
5. God cares about you and also is mysterious and has some secret reason for keeping you with a damaged spinal cord.

in which case, I would say that friend of yours is getting desperate.
#5 is something that I have heard a bunch of times from christians.

Is your friend a christian?

--Ferrocyanide

[zwanzig]

@Ferrocyanide I thank you for the break down of possible responses. My friend is Christian and when we tried to have further conversation about this topic, he told me a story about how at a time when he was barely making ends meet and living in a tiny house, he was able to save about $20 for Christmas. While at his church, there was a new family who had moved into the area and were having difficulty with money. A "voice" told him to put that $20, all that he was able to save, into the collection plate that came around. Less than 10 minutes later he found an envelope with his name on it and inside was a $100 bill.

I was getting angry on my friend's behalf and didn't want to make him think I was angry with him. I tried once just to say, "There is a human element here. Someone left that for you. It wasn't God wrote your name on an envelope with cash money inside." But apparently , the big guy in the sky who values free will so much, he can't affect our decision to believe by proving himself, the same guy who has to hurt people in order to teach them, is also a puppeteer and can influence the will of regular people to do his bidding. I am declining to further get into it with him.

He is such a lovely person, despite his ailments and spending a good portion of time in a wheelchair, he is cheerful, with heart of gold. I struggle being a dedicated anti-theist, because I believe religion and faith is harmful but I cannot destroy or attack the faith of someone I care about. Not to their face, anyway. So, I decided to come here instead to get it off my chest.

[Angrboda]

He is such a lovely person, despite his ailments and spending a good portion of time in a wheelchair, he is cheerful, with heart of gold. I struggle being a dedicated anti-theist, because I believe religion and faith is harmful but I cannot destroy or attack the faith of someone I care about. Not to their face, anyway. So, I decided to come here instead to get it off my chest.

It's a funny thing, but misfortune tends to bring out the best in us. Maybe God isn't involved, but there seems to be a kernel of truth obscured by the religious explanation.

[arewethereyet]

What parent hasn't lovingly said, This is going to hurt me more than it hurts you?

I haven't experienced that myself. Also, I was not a crazy kid however, I have broken a few things.

Anyway, I'm sure that there are a lot of parents that don't beat up their children.

--Ferrocyanide

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You don't have to be crazy kid to be abused if that's in your parents' nature.
Sounds a lot like you are victim blaming.
And yes, there are parents who don't beat up their children...just as there are parents who do.

[The Grand Nudger]

He is such a lovely person, despite his ailments and spending a good portion of time in a wheelchair, he is cheerful, with heart of gold. I struggle being a dedicated anti-theist, because I believe religion and faith is harmful but I cannot destroy or attack the faith of someone I care about. Not to their face, anyway. So, I decided to come here instead to get it off my chest.

It's a funny thing, but misfortune tends to bring out the best in us.  Maybe God isn't involved, but there seems to be a kernel of truth obscured by the religious explanation.

Immediately reminds me of a line in warnocks floor speech - that he believed that democracy was the political enactment of a spiritual idea.  The sacred worth of all human beings.

Without investing too much into any of those terms - it's broadly relatable content and...something that's there.   Now, he prefaced this with the qualifier, as a man of faith - but it's unlikely to be the case that should a man like warnock no longer believe in a god or a religion - he would abandon belief in that sacred truth - or even suffer a diminishment of it's sacred value as he perceives it.  It's a true article that a religious explication surrounds.

[zwanzig]

It's a funny thing, but misfortune tends to bring out the best in us. Maybe God isn't involved, but there seems to be a kernel of truth obscured by the religious explanation.

Yes, it can in some cases. I agree. And my problem isn't with the idea that struggle and adversity can bring about change and healthy growth in people. The thing I disagree with and find sad is the intent when God is behind it. Because not everyone is taught lessons through pain. Some people learn things through being given opportunities and good fortune. Some people learn through hard work and earning and creating things for themselves. And who's to say a softer lesson might not have worked just as well? A God who says to me, "You were just too prideful! I HAD to humble you through crippling you in a horrific way!" is one that doesn't deserve to be called God and it is not a being worthy of my worship. Abuse is not a teaching tool. The God of everything, if it existed, if it wants to stand up as the ultimate standard of good in this world, if it wants to reassure me that it knows me and understands what is best for me, better than I do, does not get to inflict pain upon me and talk about my arrogance and how it's my fault that I am hurt and how much I deserve suffering.

That's what I hear when my friend spoke about this to me. That he was given pain and he couldn't just take a lesson from something that happened and grow from it. He had to twist it to make it so that his struggles are something he earned, that his suffering was how his Creator shows him love. That's how God loves him, in his mind.

I also empathise because I had that same mindset when I was a believer. That everything good that happened was because God loved me and wished for me to be happy. And everything bad that happened to me was also because God loved me. I existed at the whim of some being that said it wanted the best for me, but really, I was nothing but a toy and a tool for it. It taught me that love comes with a price.

[The Grand Nudger]

Christian belief is transactional. Here, too, the religious explication probably surrounds some true article. You have to give to get. Human reciprocity and loyalty and authority re-written as the fundamental units of the cosmos.