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[Serious] When you left theism, did you go Left?
#21
RE: When you left theism, did you go Left?
(April 19, 2021 at 9:24 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: It's probably not so much that people are leaving religions because they're beginning to think critically as it is that the religions no longer provide the services for which they were envisioned and upon which their cultural authority was premised.

The tradition solution to “religions no longer provide the services for which they were envisioned and upon which their cultural authority was premised” was religion shopping, schisms and formations of new religion.     

The fact that modern world sees substantially greater portion of people going a totally different way from those traditional solutions is IMHO to a large degree attributable to the scientific revolution and prevalence of examples of efficacy of critical thinking.
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#22
RE: When you left theism, did you go Left?
Religion never affected my politics. I was a centrist when I was a theist, and its the same now.

I appreciate some of the concerns of the left -- I just don't believe they have many coherent solutions.
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#23
RE: When you left theism, did you go Left?
(April 19, 2021 at 11:14 am)HappySkeptic Wrote: Religion never affected my politics.  I was a centrist when I was a theist, and its the same now.

I appreciate some of the concerns of the left -- I just don't believe they have many coherent solutions.

I do not give a rat’s ass about most concerns voiced by the right, because these concerns are essentially all mere deceitful stratagems conceived to enable a small number of people most of whom I find contemptible to profit in fundamentally unfair ways and ultimately at my long term expense.   

At least the concerns of the left tend to have merits on their own, and even if what they conceive to be solutions are dubious, they at least would be susceptible to genuine solutions in which most can benefit in the long run.
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#24
RE: When you left theism, did you go Left?
It's complicated. On the one hand, my old church is Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod, which is roughly speaking, the missing link between the Roman Catholic Church and the American Evangelical movement, something for those of us who like candles AND far-right politics. If you've listened to Last Podcast on the Left's series on John List, it has modernised a bit since then, but not by very much. On the other hand, my family were further left than most of the rest of the congregation. When my fifth grade class (it was tied to the Church) held a mock-election for the 2000 elections, Bush won about 18-to-Reverend. Or maybe there was a second vote for Gore, I don't know.

Of course, that said, it was a bit jarring even to them when I came out as a Democratic Socialist* (and bear in mind, this is before Bernie was a household name), and even they were accepting when I told them I no longer believed in God, if only because the time I had there was so horrific that even the Church Elder's daughter that was my mother could see where I was coming from. Labels aside, I think not having to give a shit what the church thought helped make it easier to explore where my politics lay.

* or maybe I'm more Social Democrat, or perhaps even Libertarian Socialist fits my views better.
I was born with a gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad.

[Image: harmlesskitchen.png]

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#25
RE: When you left theism, did you go Left?
(April 19, 2021 at 10:32 am)Anomalocaris Wrote: The tradition solution to “religions no longer provide the services for which they were envisioned and upon which their cultural authority was premised” was religion shopping, schisms and formations of new religion.     

The fact that modern world sees substantially greater portion of people going a totally different way from those traditional solutions is IMHO to a large degree attributable to the scientific revolution and prevalence of examples of efficacy of critical thinking.
There's a hard distinction between religious assertions and superstitious beliefs.

I think that probably applies to judeo-christian superstitions, but it's not clear that it applies to religion (even judeo-christian religion) at all.  

Religion shopping is huge, schisms are a present thing (especially over political disagreements).  There are contemporary and reconstructionist religions.  The non traditional solutions people are turning to are no less religious on account of being non traditional.   The religious can very easily, and often do, see confirmation of their religious assertions in science and in critical thought.  

I'd look more to the proliferation of special interests, our increased ability for direct association, and the massive amount of government funding for this or that cause. The remaining hook of what we might call traditional religion, a moving target, is community. You can ask the religious.
It's bad for the rest of the world when americans are paid so little they can only afford chocolate mined by child slaves and clothes made in overseas sweatshops. - Robyn Pennacchia
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#26
RE: When you left theism, did you go Left?
I noticed this first coming up in regards to purity fundamentalist values. Like, anti-gay, anti-pre-marital sex, anti-abortion, anti-tattoos, anti-trans; anything that would stain or alter the "temple" that is your body. Now that I believe mine or anyone else's flesh actually does belong to them and is the part of this human experience that we can only base reality on, I no longer hold marriage in high regard, I no longer think that pre-birth life is sacred to the point of taking over someone else's life, ESPECIALLY if that person doesn't want to be a parent(seriously, how did that not occur to me before? How stupid is that? "You don't want a baby? Tough. You should be stuck with it. *same breath* Some people are so cruel to their children and shouldn't be parents. Those poor innocent little souls should be with parents who love them and teach them right."). I no longer think sex is this magic worthiness paint but is what you make of it and can be a way for humans to naturally connect and speak to one other and express themselves. etc.

I thought of another one today. Global warming. I used to disbelieve global warming simply for the fact that God made this earth for us and only He would control when it ends. It hit me this morning how that point of view has changed within me now. Because there is no God. We're not super special, we've got no one watching us. ...we're NOT protected. We could legitimately destroy this place. In fact, there is no second coming, there is no plan. The sun could explode, a meteor could hit, or a bomb could go off and all life would be done in a moment and none of it was saved or barred from happening. It's a little bit existentially terrifying but at the same time liberating. I'm responsible. For this moment, this breath, for what I put out there. I'm in charge of the meaning of my life and every second could be my last and that's it. The message, the meaning ends with me.

A reason I am anti-theist: the apocalyptic joyful. Those who think there is a God who will orchestrate the end. So they don't have to take care of the planet and every portents of doom is a celebrated sign that the end they dream of is nearing. They are not in this with the rest of us and that is a destructive ideology to allow. Even Mormons who have scriptures saying that we should be good stewards of the earth and its creatures are waiting for the end and are smug and gratified by each bad thing that goes wrong.
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#27
RE: When you left theism, did you go Left?
Yes, and I wound up in Albuquerque. [Image: Worried.png]
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#28
RE: When you left theism, did you go Left?
What hasn't changed, Five? Is there anything you used to believe because -insert god here-......and now still believe, for -reason other than god here-? Is or was there anything at all, in the whole world, that wasn't premised on a superstition about an existent fairy?

With you on the death cultists, entirely. A frustrated and apocalyptic people who possess apocalyptic weapons, both militarily and politically, is a recipe for exactly what it sounds like.
It's bad for the rest of the world when americans are paid so little they can only afford chocolate mined by child slaves and clothes made in overseas sweatshops. - Robyn Pennacchia
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#29
RE: When you left theism, did you go Left?
Guns. I live out in the country, the nearest emergency centers(ambulance, police, firefighters) are 30 minutes away. So, I support the right of citizenry to own firearms to protect themselves, simply because I have lived that life that makes home protection my responsibility. 

And...free speech? I don't know. That one is kind of iffy. Because back then I used to think we were being persecuted for being Christians and standing up for Godly morals which often included saying offensive things because it was "the truth" (such as homophobic or transphobic or misogynistic things couched in "loving" language). I still think speech should be free because wrong ideas should be challenged and I know those ideas don't go away just because you tell someone to be quiet. However, I now believe that there is a line where certain types of speech can be harmful and I'm not 100% sold on the effectiveness of challenging wrong ideas. 

I didn't have these views because of God necessarily. I suppose a certain measure of these inalienable rights was processed through the American exceptionalism fantasy and "Christian-founded nation" myth when I was a believer. Mormonism has a very deep USA is "God's pillar on the shining hill" foundational lore; it is one of the lessons in adult Sunday school. Now I've taken a more practical and Utilitarian view on them with God removed from the equation.
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#30
RE: When you left theism, did you go Left?
If nothing comes to mind, then there's a strong chance that none of your operative beliefs were ever premised on a god in reality - and this might go some way towards an explanation of how and why you fell (or were amenable to falling) away from your faith.

Nothing that mattered deeply as an axiomatic truth of what you see as sacred and taboo in the world, your religious beliefs, was premised on a mormon superstition. If it mattered to you then, but not now, you were being superstitious, not religious. If it matters just as much and just as strongly god or no god - that, right there, is the essence of a genuine religion. As an observation, you may not have drifted quite as far left as you imagine given the trifecta above. Guns, free speech, and inalienable rights is a deeply red bit of messaging. Not just individually, but specifically as that trifecta. Perhaps, while you were still in the mormon community, you were lead to believe that moderate right wing politics was the stratospheric left?
It's bad for the rest of the world when americans are paid so little they can only afford chocolate mined by child slaves and clothes made in overseas sweatshops. - Robyn Pennacchia
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