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A disgraceful god
#41
RE: A disgraceful god
Quote: The chief differences being that we do not demand that microorganisms love us, that we do not promise to intervene to make life better for microorganisms, and we do not promise that microorganisms will live forever if they follow our rules.

If God demands a particular set of behaviours from human beings, it seems incumbent upon God to unmistakably demonstrate his existence to us.

Boru
But God does not demand that everyone love him. 
The Jews at the time, the Israelites, were enslaved by the Egyptians.
So they called on the 'God of Abraham' to save them from slavery.
God sent them Moses who did just that. Then the Jews became problematic and began speaking against God and doing things he did not like.

So God  basically told them that since they want his help and call on him ... loving and following him is reasonable.

Thanks, Ed
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#42
RE: A disgraceful god
(May 2, 2021 at 2:42 pm)edial Wrote:
Quote: The chief differences being that we do not demand that microorganisms love us, that we do not promise to intervene to make life better for microorganisms, and we do not promise that microorganisms will live forever if they follow our rules.

If God demands a particular set of behaviours from human beings, it seems incumbent upon God to unmistakably demonstrate his existence to us.

Boru
But God does not demand that everyone love him. 
The Jews at the time, the Israelites, were enslaved by the Egyptians.
So they called on the 'God of Abraham' to save them from slavery.
God sent them Moses who did just that. Then the Jews became problematic and began speaking against God and doing things he did not like.

So God  basically told them that since they want his help and call on him ... loving and following him is reasonable.

Thanks, Ed

Of course God demands that everyone love him. That’s why he provides punishment for people who don’t. By your own statements, God will not help those who don’t love him. Your God has the manners and morals of a spoiled child.

And FYI, the Israelites were never enslaved in Egypt. That’s a myth.

Boru
‘Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.’ Ralph Waldo Emerson
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#43
RE: A disgraceful god
(May 2, 2021 at 1:46 pm)edial Wrote: What I do not understand is how Christianity is illogical.

Because it starts from illogical premises. If you don't believe me read the bible.

The basic underpinnings for christianity are a minor war god of a pantheon from a weak and semi-barbaric group of tribes at the very outer edges of the first Mesopotamian civilisations who grew into an overpowerful and supremely spoilt toddlerish god and for whom eventually his contemporaries were ditched altogether creating a monotheistic religion. Leaven this out with notions of paradise from Babylon/Persia, strictures and rituals from the mystery cults and a huge dose of scriptural demands from the Roman empire and you get the basis from whence modern christianity eventually evolved.

(May 2, 2021 at 2:42 pm)edial Wrote: But God does not demand that everyone love him. 

The abrahamic god most definitely does. Read your bible, it's one of the most repeated refrains from that book, "you must love me or I will damn you to eternal torment, because I am a needy and spiteful god".
The great appear great because we are on our knees. Let us rise!
Big James
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#44
RE: A disgraceful god
(May 2, 2021 at 3:05 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:
(May 2, 2021 at 2:42 pm)edial Wrote: But God does not demand that everyone love him. 
The Jews at the time, the Israelites, were enslaved by the Egyptians.
So they called on the 'God of Abraham' to save them from slavery.
God sent them Moses who did just that. Then the Jews became problematic and began speaking against God and doing things he did not like.

So God  basically told them that since they want his help and call on him ... loving and following him is reasonable.

Thanks, Ed

Quote: Of course God demands that everyone love him. That’s why he provides punishment for people who don’t.

This is not true. We all will die and in time there will be the Judgment Day.
And those who rejected God will be judged not by God, but by the people whom they harmed. And God will allow all the harm that people had done in their lives to count against them.
Quote:By your own statements, God will not help those who don’t love him. Your God has the manners and morals of a spoiled child.
But why should God help those who hate him?
Does this make sense to you?

Quote:And FYI, the Israelites were never enslaved in Egypt. That’s a myth.

Boru
But Boru, you came to an understanding that God demands that everyone loves him from the Bible. What's the point then of rejecting the text in the Bible that explains it?
Thanks,Ed

(May 2, 2021 at 3:13 pm)Nomad Wrote:
(May 2, 2021 at 1:46 pm)edial Wrote: What I do not understand is how Christianity is illogical.

Quote:Because it starts from illogical premises.  If you don't believe me read the bible.

The basic underpinnings for christianity are a minor war god of a pantheon from a weak and semi-barbaric group of tribes at the very outer edges of the first Mesopotamian civilisations who grew into an overpowerful and supremely spoilt toddlerish god and for whom eventually his contemporaries were ditched altogether creating a monotheistic religion.  Leaven this out with notions of paradise from Babylon/Persia, strictures and rituals from the mystery cults and a huge dose of scriptural demands from the Roman empire and you get the basis from whence modern christianity eventually evolved.
You are asking me to read the Bible, yet that what you say is not in the Bible.

(May 2, 2021 at 2:42 pm)edial Wrote: But God does not demand that everyone love him. 

Quote: The abrahamic god most definitely does.  Read your bible, it's one of the most repeated refrains from that book, "you must love me or I will damn you to eternal torment, because I am a needy and spiteful god".
I teach the Bible and that what you quoted is not in the Bible.

Thanks,Ed
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#45
RE: A disgraceful god
(May 2, 2021 at 3:20 pm)edial Wrote: I teach the Bible and that what you quoted is not in the Bible.

Thanks,Ed

If you knew your bible you'd concede that it's an extremely accurate paraphrase.

The actual quote:

"for i, yahweh your god, am a jealous god, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and on the fourth generation of those who hate me..."

As I say, a needy and spiteful god is an accurate descriptor of the fictional being yhwh.
The great appear great because we are on our knees. Let us rise!
Big James
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#46
RE: A disgraceful god
A theist can convince himself of anything when he overlooks the parts of the bible that make him uncomfortable.
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#47
RE: A disgraceful god
(May 2, 2021 at 3:36 pm)Nomad Wrote:
(May 2, 2021 at 3:20 pm)edial Wrote: I teach the Bible and that what you quoted is not in the Bible.

Thanks,Ed

Quote: If you knew your bible you'd concede that it's an extremely accurate paraphrase.

The actual quote:

"for i, yahweh your god, am a jealous god, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and on the fourth generation of those who hate me..."

As I say, a needy and spiteful god is an accurate descriptor of the fictional being yhwh.
That is allowing the natural sins of the fathers to naturally travel into their children. Let's say the father (or grandfather) is an alcoholic or drug addict, the tendency for such addictions is stronger in the children born from such parents. The same thing can be applied to any sin, such as hatred, violence, thievery and such. But to those who do want to follow God, he will extend that blessed qualities of his parents upon many, many generations.
Thanks,
Ed

(May 2, 2021 at 3:38 pm)Eleven Wrote: A theist can convince himself of anything when he overlooks the parts of the bible that make him uncomfortable.

I don't know about that. But so can the atheists.
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#48
RE: A disgraceful god
Quote:But Boru, you came to an understanding that God demands that everyone loves him from the Bible. What's the point then of rejecting the text in the Bible that explains it?
Thanks,Ed

Because the Exodus story is just that - a story which shows that if you do not love God he will make things rough for you (at the very least).

If you really ‘teach the Bible’ you should be familiar with the verse in Deuteronomy that explicitly says that God loves only those who love him back. This is not a tenable description  of s being who the Bible describes as love itself. 

Boru
‘Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.’ Ralph Waldo Emerson
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#49
RE: A disgraceful god
There is no bias on behalf of the atheist, for atheism is just the lack of a belief in a deity that has not been proven to exist.

The theist is chock full of bias, because his emotional need for a deity to exist outweighs reason most every time.
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#50
RE: A disgraceful god
(May 2, 2021 at 3:51 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:
Quote:But Boru, you came to an understanding that God demands that everyone loves him from the Bible. What's the point then of rejecting the text in the Bible that explains it?
Thanks,Ed

Because the Exodus story is just that - a story which shows that if you do not love God he will make things rough for you (at the very least).

If you really ‘teach the Bible’ you should be familiar with the verse in Deuteronomy that explicitly says that God loves only those who love him back. This is not a tenable description  of s being who the Bible describes as love itself. 

Boru
But the New Testament expands on the fact of the love of God. Christ said that God loved the world and gave his son (meaning Christ) for the entire world.
People who hate God, walk away from God. And people have the right to do so. 

Thanks.
Ed
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