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Benevolent Creator God?
#21
RE: Benevolent Creator God?
The point of the problem of evil is not that no one can imagine the divine purpose of suffering- soul forges gotta soul forge - but that the advocate is positively asserting that there is no acceptable divine purpose of suffering under the constellation of attributes omni-man is asserted to have. That there is nothing that suffering could accomplish that an omnipotent and omnibenevolent god could only accomplish one way, that specific way, that specifically malevolent way. Asserting that there is, is just telling a person all of the things this omni god can't do, doesnt want to do, or wont do.

You may believe that it is somehow worth it, Neo - but thats a difference of opinion, not a demonstration of any logical issue with the line of questioning, claim, or conclusions which might follow. If it were me, I'd focus on how I thought the claim was wrong, not declare the issue a non-starter. It actually is a pretty odd state of affairs, something worth clarifying. We wonder as much entirely apart from any beliefs in a god - ala what is the point of suffering in an animal -at all-? It's unclear that it serves any necessary function. We might contend that it modifies behavior - but that's an inefficient and circuitous route considering that we can effect the same behaviors without any need to add suffering. Our biology inflicts it upon us nevertheless, playing the part of god in a godless equivalence.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#22
RE: Benevolent Creator God?
(July 30, 2021 at 11:58 am)HappySkeptic Wrote:
(July 30, 2021 at 11:45 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: That said, if there are truly vast cosmic forces of which we are unaware, and to me that seems obvious, then it seems reasonable to wonder what they might be and how one could align one's life to best account for them...without dwelling on it too much or projecting unwarranted certainty. Personally, I have more than enough reasons to say for myself that I know God exists but not much more than that. I have hope that God cares for me and has a plan even if it often does not seem so.

And yet I do not see these "vast cosmic forces".  Where are they and what are they doing?  That seems like a prerequisite for trying to "align one's life to best account for them".

The number of things we do not know about is vastly greater than even the the few things we think we know...and even those seem tentative. Heck, Jupiter exerts more gavitational pull on my body than the cell phone in my pocket and yet I can pass my days oblivious to the effects of that distant planet. Chance seems to play a pretty big role in life and yet in hindsight it often looks like neccessity. For all it is worth, chance and necessity might as well be gods.

In at least one respect, I consider my intellectual belief in God similar to believing in other intangibles like ownership or virtue...not physically apparent yet seemingly conceptually indispensible.
<insert profound quote here>
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#23
RE: Benevolent Creator God?
You'd probably have to take that one up with a neopagan. They'd be receptive. As a general rule, however, atheists don't believe in gods. That includes gods made of chance, necessity, jupiter and cell phones.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#24
RE: Benevolent Creator God?
(July 30, 2021 at 9:48 am)HappySkeptic Wrote:
(July 30, 2021 at 6:03 am)Klorophyll Wrote: If by good/benevolent you mean: has ultimately good intentions. Then clearly, the Abrahamic God in judeo-christian/islamic scripture is good. He intends to serve ultimate justice+ ever-lasting happiness for those who followed his path, and vice versa. 

Yahweh was a tribal war god.  He only cared about his followers, and he was brutal to them if they stopped worshiping or obeying.  He had no mercy on the other tribes.  He also advocated that women are chattel, and that slavery was peachy keen.

Ah, but he had an ultimate purpose, so he's good?  Great, any tyrant with an ultimate purpose must then be wonderful.

I didn't say ultimate purpose.. read again: a good god has good ultimate intentions, and scripture in major abrahamic religions tells us just that. OP's question is precisely why there is scripture, it's precisely why there are prophets. God can't be known through guesswork. Atheists just got it backwards, they think in a vacuum while the answer was there in front of them for dozens of centuries, prophets-simple men like me and you, to whom God revealed his message, already clarified these issues.

A recent finding of mine which I consider to be a very troublesome issue for atheism: the most prominent explanation of major religious experiences is that there some underlying neurological disorder that prompted some people to think God spoke to them. But here is the dazzling fact that was overlooked:

Any experience has a corresponding neurological state.

The historian W. Montgomery watt, one of the most famous orientalists who wrote about Islam and its prophet, figured this out a while ago: the allegations that Muhammad PBUH suffered from some neurological disorder are at best irrelevant, God might as well comunicate his message to a human being in an altered state of mind, in fact, it's actually what's to be expected, our consciousness can't handle even mundane accidents and miseries of life, let alone divine manifestation.

This alone is a devastating blow to atheism. Non-believers are pressed to explain away divine manifestation in prophets' religious experience, and until they do so, they are epistemically obliged to accept their message.
Qur'anic revelation is the sole path to ultimate reality. All argumentation and philosophy is an expression of arrogance and an overestimation of human cognitive ability. 

"But believe me, Cleanthes, the most natural feeling that a well-disposed mind will have on this occasion is a longing desire and expectation that God will be pleased to remove or at least to lessen this profound ignorance, by giving mankind some particular revelation, revealing the nature, attributes, and operations of the divine object of our faith." (Hume's Dialogues)


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#25
RE: Benevolent Creator God?
You say prophet, I say delusional.
[Image: mtfbwyf.jpg]
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#26
RE: Benevolent Creator God?
(July 30, 2021 at 1:30 pm)Foxaire Wrote: You say prophet, I say delusional.

How do you tell who's delusional from who isn't? Some magical power you care to share with us..?
Qur'anic revelation is the sole path to ultimate reality. All argumentation and philosophy is an expression of arrogance and an overestimation of human cognitive ability. 

"But believe me, Cleanthes, the most natural feeling that a well-disposed mind will have on this occasion is a longing desire and expectation that God will be pleased to remove or at least to lessen this profound ignorance, by giving mankind some particular revelation, revealing the nature, attributes, and operations of the divine object of our faith." (Hume's Dialogues)


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#27
RE: Benevolent Creator God?
You're right, there's absolutely no way to distinguish a delusional person from anyone else. /s

Meanwhile, I don't think your god has good immediate or ultimate intentions. What does he plan to do with dissenters..again? What would you tell a christian who believes in a good god, and determines that your god is evil, therefore cannot be god?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#28
RE: Benevolent Creator God?
(July 30, 2021 at 1:27 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: This alone is a devastating blow to atheism. Non-believers are pressed to explain away divine manifestation in prophets' religious experience, and until they do so, they are epistemically obliged to accept their message.

[Image: rofl2.gif]
[Image: Fenrir-sign.jpg]
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#29
RE: Benevolent Creator God?
(July 30, 2021 at 1:08 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: You'd probably have to take that one up with a neopagan. They'd be receptive. As a general rule, however, atheists don't believe in gods. That includes gods made of chance, necessity, jupiter and cell phones.

Yeah, I have a soft spot for the ancient pagans. Been thinking a lot about the role of intangibles lately and am in favor of clearing away as much inessential cognitive baggage as possiple. In some sense adopting an atheistic stance is helpful since most people who were raised religiously absorbed a lot of conflicting ideas and confusing attitudes. I know I was. And yet, I do not see a way to totally dispense with God and still speak intelligently about the many intangibles that are seemingly essential parts of our awareness.
<insert profound quote here>
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#30
RE: Benevolent Creator God?
(July 30, 2021 at 1:41 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: You're right, there's absolutely no way to distinguish a delusional person from anyone else.  /s

Meanwhile, I don't think your god has good immediate or ultimate intentions.  What does he plan to do with dissenters..again?  What would you tell a christian who believes in a good god, and determines that your god is evil, therefore cannot be god?

The christian believes in the same God Muslims believe in. Meanwhile, I suggest you care more about what God might do with you, and what you can do about it.
Qur'anic revelation is the sole path to ultimate reality. All argumentation and philosophy is an expression of arrogance and an overestimation of human cognitive ability. 

"But believe me, Cleanthes, the most natural feeling that a well-disposed mind will have on this occasion is a longing desire and expectation that God will be pleased to remove or at least to lessen this profound ignorance, by giving mankind some particular revelation, revealing the nature, attributes, and operations of the divine object of our faith." (Hume's Dialogues)


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