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Benevolent Creator God?
#31
RE: Benevolent Creator God?
(July 30, 2021 at 1:27 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: This alone is a devastating blow to atheism. Non-believers are pressed to explain away divine manifestation in prophets' religious experience, and until they do so, they are epistemically obliged to accept their message.

Only after you accept Mormonism and that John Smith talked to angel Moroni, and that women speak to Virgin Mary in Bosnia.
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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#32
RE: Benevolent Creator God?
(July 29, 2021 at 11:28 am)Ten Wrote: Why would you make that assumption?

Even if you had evidence of such a Creator telling us that they're good and intend good for us, what evidence do you have of that actually being true?

I have no reason to assume God, Jesus or anyone else is good. I define God as good because the Bible defines Him as good. I believe God is good, because of His graciousness and mercy I have experienced in my life and attribute as the work of His hand. If zenulbub the alien show up and claimed that all those thoughts and attributions were his doing then I would assume zenulbub was good and reassess my beliefs in zenulbub and God.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post

always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
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#33
RE: Benevolent Creator God?
It seems like we're having a discussion about how good is defined in magic book that would evade or conflict with your own definition of good otherwise.

Sure, the bad man said he was good. But the bad man saying something isn't any reason why you would agree. They make that claim all the time and you don't.....

The personal god that you've experienced..is he the god of magic book to the t? Im guessing no. Whatever it is you've experienced..again I'm guessing... is good..and insomuch as some god described in a myth isn't, that's not what you've experienced. Am I entirely wrong here?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#34
RE: Benevolent Creator God?
If you're asking has God revealed His entire character as described in the Bible to me, then the answer is no. I only know God by what God reveals to me. He has revealed both good and the bad in me, and I have seen only good in His intent and use of those revelations from my personal perspective. That is fully in line with my definition of God in the Bible.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post

always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
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#35
RE: Benevolent Creator God?
He's revealed some things which might speak to his character, if not all things. Do you agree with all of your own gods revealed character as described in magic book?

You certain that the authors didn't get anything wrong.....and that there's nothing wrong with what they described....? Practically begging you at this point to tell me that they did get some things wrong, and that the god you believe in and the god you experience in your personal life isn't quite the god of that book. Begging, because, frankly, if it were.....it's an irredeemable god, unworthy of worship by anyone, even you....and humanity has a problem to solve...name-a-god. If the true god of this world is the god of magic book, we need to consider how we're going to evict it.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#36
RE: Benevolent Creator God?
And what if this deity in which you believe is not good and that you have merely interpreted it as such? What if the bible is a cookbook for your delicious soul?

I mean, with how we individually interpret the non-empirical with such subjectivity, the outcomes are always bound to be endless. Therefore, to settle on a single form of subjective concept is to be biased and most likely wrong.
[Image: mtfbwyf.jpg]
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#37
RE: Benevolent Creator God?
(July 30, 2021 at 3:48 pm)tackattack Wrote: If you're asking has God revealed His entire character as described in the Bible to me, then the answer is no. I only know God by what God reveals to me. He has revealed both good and the bad in me, and I have seen only good in His intent and use of those revelations from my personal perspective. That is fully in line with my definition of God in the Bible.

That argument from personal revelation is not even persuasive to you who is making it because then you would also have to believe in Krishna because according to George Harrison, Krishna revealed himself to him and you don't believe in Krishna.

[Image: G-h-k.jpg]
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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#38
RE: Benevolent Creator God?
Klorophyll Wrote: "Non-believers are pressed to explain away divine manifestation in prophets' religious experience, and until they do so, they are epistemically obliged to accept their message."

Yeah, and I'm King Isildur! The burden of proof rests upon the person making the positive assertions. Atheists do not have to explain away or accept any theistic claims until said claims are backed up with testable evidence. It is perfectly logical for atheists to reject any claims of "divine manifestation" which to not meet their burden of proof.
"The world is my country; all of humanity are my brethren; and to do good deeds is my religion." (Thomas Paine)
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#39
RE: Benevolent Creator God?
(July 29, 2021 at 3:15 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Job 38 seems like the most fitting reply to the OP. I do not think I could improve on its basic call for epistemic humility.

If  a parent treated their kid like God treated Job, CPS would yank the kid out of the house and have the parent arrested.
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#40
RE: Benevolent Creator God?
(July 30, 2021 at 1:51 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Yeah, I have a soft spot for the ancient pagans. Been thinking a lot about the role of intangibles lately and am in favor of clearing away as much inessential cognitive baggage as possiple. In some sense adopting an atheistic stance is helpful since most people who were raised religiously absorbed a lot of conflicting ideas and confusing attitudes. I know I was. And yet, I do not see a way to totally dispense with God and still speak intelligently about the many intangibles that are seemingly essential parts of our awareness.

That might be a product of your religiosity and a comment on your own abilities rather than a description of any external state of affairs or the abilities of others.  There are many people who find no specific difficulty in discussing intangibles, essential or otherwise, without resorting to comments on any god.

It would be an issue of translation if there were any equivalence. You say god, but mean gravity. Say god, but mean love. Say god, but mean purpose. etc. These may not be your specific intangibles, but you can catch the drift I'm sure.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply



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