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Who was Jesus?
#91
RE: Who was Jesus?
(August 18, 2021 at 12:59 pm)HappySkeptic Wrote:
(August 18, 2021 at 12:46 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: ‘Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.’ Ralph Waldo Emerson

BTW, great quote, by a leading theologian, philosopher and abolitionist activist from the 1800s.  He was Unitarian - and still considered an important part of my UU church's roots (though the UU is no longer Christian).

Emerson believed in something called "The Oversoul" - an idea that we are all mystically connected, and this connection is his concept of God.  Complete nonsense, but far more progressive than the Christianity of his time.

Have you heard the one about Unitarian Universalist terrorists? The go round burning question marks on peoples’ lawns. Wink

Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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#92
RE: Who was Jesus?
(August 18, 2021 at 12:59 pm)HappySkeptic Wrote:
(August 18, 2021 at 12:46 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: ‘Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.’ Ralph Waldo Emerson

BTW, great quote, by a leading theologian, philosopher and abolitionist activist from the 1800s.  He was Unitarian - and still considered an important part of my UU church's roots (though the UU is no longer Christian).

Emerson believed in something called "The Oversoul" - an idea that we are all mystically connected, and this connection is his concept of God.  Complete nonsense, but far more progressive than the Christianity of his time.

I love Emerson. (Are you a fan?)

From one vantage point, the Oversoul can simply be seen as a oneness that exists between everything. Like a tree. We tend to think of a tree as one discrete object. But it isn't. It can be divided into many, many subparts. But these subparts harmonize into a whole that we call a tree. Emerson thought that every separate "part" of the universe harmonized into a single whole like that.

"A man is the whole encyclopaedia of facts. The creation of a thousand forests is in one acorn, and Egypt, Greece, Rome, Gaul, Britain, America, lie folded already in the first man. Epoch after epoch, camp, kingdom, empire, republic, democracy, are merely the application of his manifold spirit to the manifold world.... Of the universal mind each individual man is one more incarnation." --R.W.E.
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#93
RE: Who was Jesus?
(August 18, 2021 at 12:59 pm)HappySkeptic Wrote:
(August 18, 2021 at 12:46 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: ‘Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.’ Ralph Waldo Emerson

BTW, great quote, by a leading theologian, philosopher and abolitionist activist from the 1800s.  He was Unitarian - and still considered an important part of my UU church's roots (though the UU is no longer Christian).

Emerson believed in something called "The Oversoul" - an idea that we are all mystically connected, and this connection is his concept of God.  Complete nonsense, but far more progressive than the Christianity of his time.

I can see where that's not so much nonsense as it's the association with nonsense as a component of many faiths.  A sense of the numinous when considering our relationships to each other is -if that's what some people call a god today-, at least, real, present, and measurable.  

If human society.....and we can see a direct line between oversoul and overmind, between mystical connection and cultural connection.... is thought of as the sacred article, the god, that which is not to be defaced or disadvantaged or disparaged or destroyed or disgraced.  The living breathing we and all that it entails - well, shit, that's a fairly decent religion, imo.

It's nonsense that a djinn knocked up a wayward teen and gave birth to a god with a shitlist - but we are connected, and we do feel a certain way about that.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#94
RE: Who was Jesus?
(August 18, 2021 at 2:17 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: I love Emerson. (Are you a fan?)

From one vantage point, the Oversoul can simply be seen as a oneness that exists between everything. Like a tree. We tend to think of a tree as one discrete object. But it isn't. It can be divided into many, many subparts. But these subparts harmonize into a whole that we call a tree. Emerson thought that every separate "part" of the universe harmonized into a single whole like that.

I do like Emerson.  I studied some of his essays.  Emerson's oversoul was mystical - it was something divine that we are a part of.  The oversoul inspires the best aspects of the human spirit.  Adherence to tradition and dogma is the antithesis of real religion, to him.

From Emerson's essay "The Over-Soul"

Quote:The Supreme Critic on the errors of the past and the present, and the only prophet of that which must be, is that great nature in which we rest, as the earth lies in the soft arms of the atmosphere; that Unity, that Over-soul, within which every man's particular being is contained and made one with all other; that common heart, of which all sincere conversation is the worship, to which all right action is submission; that overpowering reality which confutes our tricks and talents, and constrains every one to pass for what he is, and to speak from his character, and not from his tongue, and which evermore tends to pass into our thought and hand, and become wisdom, and virtue, and power, and beauty. We live in succession, in division, in parts, in particles. Meantime within man is the soul of the whole; the wise silence; the universal beauty, to which every part and particle is equally related; the eternal ONE. And this deep power in which we exist, and whose beatitude is all accessible to us, is not only self-sufficing and perfect in every hour, but the act of seeing and the thing seen, the seer and the spectacle, the subject and the object, are one. We see the world piece by piece, as the sun, the moon, the animal, the tree; but the whole, of which these are the shining parts, is the soul.

The man could write.
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#95
RE: Who was Jesus?
(August 18, 2021 at 11:19 am)Ahriman Wrote: And (along the same vein as the miracle topic we discussed earlier) can belief in Jesus make sense without a historical Jesus?
Yes, Jesus absolutely existed historically. And yes, belief in Jesus can make sense without a historical Jesus.

You forgot to post your evidence that Jesus existed. 
There are any number of PhD's who say he didn't. 
So lets' see your evidence, and your credentials. 
(You can skip Josephus and Tacitus ... they've been debunked). 

The thing about the "son" of God, is .... it's a misunderstanding (or willful corruption) of the Hebrew concept. 
In Hebrew culture, it did not mean what Christians mean, either to be "divine", or to be a "son of god". 
In Hebrew culture, ALL the dead (shades) went to Sheol. Good ones and bad ones. Sheol was not where Yahweh lived. 
The Hebrews, pre exile, were a tribal people. Immortality for them was the continuation of the family line. NOT "going to heaven". 

Sheol was not heaven. 
Psalm 39 :
"Turn your gaze away from me, that I may smile again,
before I depart, and am no more"

Psalm 115 :
The dead do not praise the Lord,
nor do any that go down into silence".

Psalm 6 : "For in death there is no remembrance of you, in Sheol, who can give you praise ?"

https://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13912-son-of-god
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sons_of_God
https://www.eisenbrauns.org/books/titles/978-1-57506-992-0.html
https://www.oneforisrael.org/bible-based-teaching-from-israel/mean-god-son-isnt-pagan-concept/
The fact is, the Hellenized and non Jewish Christians corrupted the Hebrew concept. 
Jesus said that not a jot or tittle would be changed until "all things are accomplished". 
A Jew from Jesus' era who claimed divine sonship and some sort of equivalence with Yahweh, would be stoned to death, legally.  

The Heavenly Host consisted of many "divine beings", the highest was (eventually) Yahweh. 
There is a passage in Deuteronomy which says a higher god than Yahweh (El Elyon), "parceled out" the nations, and Yahweh got Israel. 
When the Witch of Endor conjured the shade of Samuel in Kings, for Saul, (which they knew was forbidden), Saul asked the Witch, "What do you see" ?
She said "I see a *divine* being, rising from the earth". It's kind of a fad these days in academia to do your dissertation on what "divine beings" were in Hebrew culture. As far as a "son of God goes, Yahweh had many sons, all it meant was they were a "righteous man", it DID NOT mean the person, (generals, politicians, judges, other heroes) was actually a "son" in the sense that Christians cooked it into, as having an actual filial relationship with Yahweh. 
Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble. - Joseph Campbell  Popcorn

Militant Atheist Commie Evolutionist 
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#96
RE: Who was Jesus?
Does it really matter if Jesus was God's literal Son or not?
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#97
RE: Who was Jesus?
(August 18, 2021 at 3:24 pm)Ahriman Wrote: Does it really matter if Jesus was God's literal Son or not?

Of course it's ALL bullshit. 

But it does to Christians. It's in the creeds. And getting it there was no simple matter. 
They fought over it for decades, if not centuries .... which is one of the reasons why, ... when you read in a gospel or some other "early" writing, that Jesus was literally the son of god,
you know that at the very least, the text was edited or redacted LATER, as the theological concept had not developed until late.
If you read the proceedings of the councils they fought a LOT about it. 
You can literally read ("watch") as they (humans ... all men of course) cook up their theology in the proceedings of the Councils (you can find them on Fordham's website).
The "filioque procedit" clause is part of the dispute between the various Christianities. 
https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/ent...0the%20Son.
Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble. - Joseph Campbell  Popcorn

Militant Atheist Commie Evolutionist 
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#98
RE: Who was Jesus?
(August 18, 2021 at 3:33 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote:
(August 18, 2021 at 3:24 pm)Ahriman Wrote: Does it really matter if Jesus was God's literal Son or not?

Of course it's ALL bullshit. 

But it does to Christians. It's in the creeds. And getting it there was no simple matter. 
They fought over it for decades, if not centuries .... which is one of the reasons why, ... when you read in a gospel or some other "early" writing, that Jesus was literally the son of god,
you know that at the very least, the text was edited or redacted LATER, as the theological concept had not developed until late.  
If you read the proceedings of the councils they fought a LOT about it. 
You can literally read ("watch") as they (humans ... all men of course) cook up their theology in the proceedings of the Councils (you can find them on Fordham's website).
The "filioque procedit" clause is part of the dispute between the various Christianities. 
https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/ent...0the%20Son.
No, it really isn't all bullshit. It doesn't matter if Jesus was literally God's Son or not, what matters is the fact that someone was trying to teach humanity a better way of living, and gladly received (unjust) punishment for these teachings. Jesus was a class act, and it doesn't matter if not everything it says about Him in the Bible, is true. What's important, is that He was, and still is, an invaluable friend of Man, ever-willing to comfort us in times of trouble, and extend His Hand to the poor and needy......not just the financially poor and needy, but the spiritually poor and needy, as well.
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#99
RE: Who was Jesus?
(August 18, 2021 at 2:49 pm)HappySkeptic Wrote:
(August 18, 2021 at 2:17 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: I love Emerson. (Are you a fan?)

From one vantage point, the Oversoul can simply be seen as a oneness that exists between everything. Like a tree. We tend to think of a tree as one discrete object. But it isn't. It can be divided into many, many subparts. But these subparts harmonize into a whole that we call a tree. Emerson thought that every separate "part" of the universe harmonized into a single whole like that.

I do like Emerson.  I studied some of his essays.  Emerson's oversoul was mystical - it was something divine that we are a part of.  The oversoul inspires the best aspects of the human spirit.  Adherence to tradition and dogma is the antithesis of real religion, to him.

From Emerson's essay "The Over-Soul"

Quote:The Supreme Critic on the errors of the past and the present, and the only prophet of that which must be, is that great nature in which we rest, as the earth lies in the soft arms of the atmosphere; that Unity, that Over-soul, within which every man's particular being is contained and made one with all other; that common heart, of which all sincere conversation is the worship, to which all right action is submission; that overpowering reality which confutes our tricks and talents, and constrains every one to pass for what he is, and to speak from his character, and not from his tongue, and which evermore tends to pass into our thought and hand, and become wisdom, and virtue, and power, and beauty. We live in succession, in division, in parts, in particles. Meantime within man is the soul of the whole; the wise silence; the universal beauty, to which every part and particle is equally related; the eternal ONE. And this deep power in which we exist, and whose beatitude is all accessible to us, is not only self-sufficing and perfect in every hour, but the act of seeing and the thing seen, the seer and the spectacle, the subject and the object, are one. We see the world piece by piece, as the sun, the moon, the animal, the tree; but the whole, of which these are the shining parts, is the soul.

The man could write.

Yes. Excellent writer. I just interpret the oversoul as being the universe, really. Maybe its fundamental organizing principle too, but nothing further than that. I mean, maybe Emerson went further than that in his writings (I've only read a few of his essays). But, in the passage you quoted, all I hear is reverence for the universe/nature. A sort of pantheism at most. (It is mystical, though.)
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RE: Who was Jesus?
(August 18, 2021 at 3:24 pm)Ahriman Wrote: Does it really matter if Jesus was God's literal Son or not?

Well, in short, ofc.  Particularly to those people and societies who premise some other assertion on the truth of that assertion.  

It's certainly a requirement to believe in a literal christ to be christian (as opposed to a jesusist) - and it's important whether or not that belief is true or false to christian assertions (as opposed to jesusist assertions), for example.  In the grander scheme of religious belief?  No, not at all.  Jesus doesn't have to be real or the real son of god - and isn't, and wasn't, for there to be christians or jesusists. Fitness of the message kind of thing.

While people interested in categorizing superstitious beliefs might then refer to a demographics christianity, others exploring culture or religious beliefs might focus on their shared social items, things that may, in fact, survive the death of the superstition and be found over and over as the demographic assumes and abandons new superstitions. A cultural christian without christ is just as religious as one who still believes in a literal son of god. At some point, the truth of some assertion matters to any asserted worldview, at least in an academic sense.

Practically, people can be nuts for no reason at all and to no specific end. It's a thing we do, apparently.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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