Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: May 27, 2022, 8:43 am

Thread Rating:
  • 1 Vote(s) - 4 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Something for nothing
#11
RE: Something for nothing
(September 11, 2021 at 11:36 am)Jehanne Wrote:
(September 11, 2021 at 10:05 am)Spongebob Wrote: We KNOW that EVs use electricity produced in a power plant.  We KNOW that most of that power includes fossil fuels.  We don't claim otherwise.  We also know that the EVs themselves produce zero emissions and any emissions arising from the electricity they use comes from a facility that is far better at cleaning its emissions than any ICE vehicle.  We are also generally advocates of moving away from fossil fuels to cleaner forms of energy.  So there's absolutely no hypocrisy in the position of promoting EV's.  So just stop with this bullshit argument.  You're just embarrassing yourself.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but, I have read that if the United States would harvest every photon of light from the Sun that such energy (in Joules) would only meet 50% of that which we consume.

I don’t think that’s correct. To meet all US energy needs would require about 21 000 square miles of solar panels (less, if the technology improves). This is tiny.

Boru
‘Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.’ Ralph Waldo Emerson
Reply
#12
RE: Something for nothing
(September 11, 2021 at 11:52 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:
(September 11, 2021 at 11:36 am)Jehanne Wrote: Please correct me if I am wrong, but, I have read that if the United States would harvest every photon of light from the Sun that such energy (in Joules) would only meet 50% of that which we consume.

I don’t think that’s correct. To meet all US energy needs would require about 21 000 square miles of solar panels (less, if the technology improves). This is tiny.

Boru

We use 93 quadrillion BTUs annually; one BTU is 1055.06 joules; a quadrillion is 10^15, and so, the US uses approximately 10^20 joules per annum:

EIA -- US energy

The Sun gives us 1360 watts per square meter.

NASA Earth Observatory

The US has 3.797 million square miles, and so,

3,797,000 square miles * (2,590,000 square meters / 1 square mile) = 9,834,230,000,000 square meters in the US, or 9.8 * 10^12 square meters.

Taking 10^20 joules / (365*24*3600 seconds) = 3.17 * 10^12 watts

Taking 3.17 * 10^12 watts / 1360 watts per square meter = 2.33 * 10^9 square meters of solar panels.

And, so, we need a few hundred million square meters of solar panels, a 100,000 km by 10,000 km array.  Not enough land, or so it appears.
And without delay Peter went quickly out of the synagogue (assembly) and went unto the house of Marcellus, where Simon lodged: and much people followed him...And Peter turned unto the people that followed him and said: Ye shall now see a great and marvellous wonder. And Peter seeing a great dog bound with a strong chain, went to him and loosed him, and when he was loosed the dog received a man's voice and said unto Peter: What dost thou bid me to do, thou servant of the unspeakable and living God? Peter said unto him: Go in and say unto Simon in the midst of his company: Peter saith unto thee, Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And immediately the dog ran and entered in, and rushed into the midst of them that were with Simon, and lifted up his forefeet and in a loud voice said: Thou Simon, Peter the servant of Christ who standeth at the door saith unto thee: Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou most wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And when Simon heard it, and beheld the incredible sight, he lost the words wherewith he was deceiving them that stood by, and all of them were amazed. (The Acts of Peter, 9)
Reply
#13
RE: Something for nothing
(September 11, 2021 at 11:36 am)Jehanne Wrote:
(September 11, 2021 at 10:05 am)Spongebob Wrote: We KNOW that EVs use electricity produced in a power plant.  We KNOW that most of that power includes fossil fuels.  We don't claim otherwise.  We also know that the EVs themselves produce zero emissions and any emissions arising from the electricity they use comes from a facility that is far better at cleaning its emissions than any ICE vehicle.  We are also generally advocates of moving away from fossil fuels to cleaner forms of energy.  So there's absolutely no hypocrisy in the position of promoting EV's.  So just stop with this bullshit argument.  You're just embarrassing yourself.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but, I have read that if the United States would harvest every photon of light from the Sun that such energy (in Joules) would only meet 50% of that which we consume.

It's wrong. Energy usage of the US is about 93 quadrillion BTUs a year, which amounts to just less than 10^20 Joules per year. The solar constant is 1.361*10^3 Joules per square meter per second. That gives about 4*10^10 Joules per square meter per year. Dividing the two, we see that (capturing *every* photon) would take about 2.5*10^9 square meters, which is a square that is 50 kilometers on a side.

Now, efficiency and hours of daylight increase this, but it is still a long way from the total area of the US.
Reply
#14
RE: Something for nothing
(September 11, 2021 at 11:36 am)Jehanne Wrote: Please correct me if I am wrong, but, I have read that if the United States would harvest every photon of light from the Sun that such energy (in Joules) would only meet 50% of that which we consume.

This is easily refuted.  In general terms, the sun bathes the earth in more energy in one hour than humans consume in an entire year.  Read sources below for details.  Of course we would never be able to capture all of those photons, nor would we want to.  But the point is, there's plenty of sunlight.  What you probably read had something to do with the limitations of solar panels to collect/capture photons and store them as electrical energy.  Of course there's also the possibility of collecting solar energy from space in the future, which would be orders of magnitude more efficient.  We just don't have any extension cords long enough.

sources:
https://www.businessinsider.com/this-is-...wer-2015-9
https://www.need.org/Files/curriculum/gu...tGuide.pdf
https://old-www.sandia.gov/~jytsao/Solar%20FAQs.pdf
Why is it so?
~Julius Sumner Miller
Reply
#15
RE: Something for nothing
(September 11, 2021 at 12:16 pm)Jehanne Wrote:
(September 11, 2021 at 11:52 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: I don’t think that’s correct. To meet all US energy needs would require about 21 000 square miles of solar panels (less, if the technology improves). This is tiny.

Boru

We use 93 quadrillion BTUs annually; one BTU is 1055.06 joules; a quadrillion is 10^15, and so, the US uses approximately 10^20 joules per annum:

EIA -- US energy

The Sun gives us 1360 watts per square meter.

NASA Earth Observatory

The US has 3.797 million square miles, and so,

3,797,000 square miles * (2,590,000 square meters / 1 square mile) = 9,834,230,000,000 square meters in the US, or 9.8 * 10^12 square meters.

Taking 10^20 joules / (365*24*3600 seconds) = 3.17 * 10^12 watts

Taking 3.17 * 10^12 watts / 1360 watts per square meter = 2.33 * 10^9 square meters of solar panels.

And, so, we need a few hundred million square meters of solar panels, a 100,000 km by 10,000 km array.  Not enough land, or so it appears.

Nope. that is in square *meters*, not square kilometers. So, a 50km by 50km area would do it.
Reply
#16
RE: Something for nothing
(September 11, 2021 at 12:16 pm)polymath257 Wrote:
(September 11, 2021 at 11:36 am)Jehanne Wrote: Please correct me if I am wrong, but, I have read that if the United States would harvest every photon of light from the Sun that such energy (in Joules) would only meet 50% of that which we consume.

It's wrong. Energy usage of the US is about 93 quadrillion BTUs a year, which amounts to just less than 10^20 Joules per year. The solar constant is 1.361*10^3 Joules per square meter per second. That gives about 4*10^10 Joules per square meter per year. Dividing the two, we see that (capturing *every* photon) would take about 2.5*10^9 square meters, which is a square that is 50 kilometers on a side.

Now, efficiency and hours of daylight increase this, but it is still a long way from the total area of the US.

We use a trillion watts on average, right?

(September 11, 2021 at 12:25 pm)polymath257 Wrote:
(September 11, 2021 at 12:16 pm)Jehanne Wrote: We use 93 quadrillion BTUs annually; one BTU is 1055.06 joules; a quadrillion is 10^15, and so, the US uses approximately 10^20 joules per annum:

EIA -- US energy

The Sun gives us 1360 watts per square meter.

NASA Earth Observatory

The US has 3.797 million square miles, and so,

3,797,000 square miles * (2,590,000 square meters / 1 square mile) = 9,834,230,000,000 square meters in the US, or 9.8 * 10^12 square meters.

Taking 10^20 joules / (365*24*3600 seconds) = 3.17 * 10^12 watts

Taking 3.17 * 10^12 watts / 1360 watts per square meter = 2.33 * 10^9 square meters of solar panels.

And, so, we need a few hundred million square meters of solar panels, a 100,000 km by 10,000 km array.  Not enough land, or so it appears.

Nope. that is in square *meters*, not square kilometers. So, a 50km by 50km area would do it.

Yep, I messed up.

And, so, a 50 km by 50 km array is completely doable!
And without delay Peter went quickly out of the synagogue (assembly) and went unto the house of Marcellus, where Simon lodged: and much people followed him...And Peter turned unto the people that followed him and said: Ye shall now see a great and marvellous wonder. And Peter seeing a great dog bound with a strong chain, went to him and loosed him, and when he was loosed the dog received a man's voice and said unto Peter: What dost thou bid me to do, thou servant of the unspeakable and living God? Peter said unto him: Go in and say unto Simon in the midst of his company: Peter saith unto thee, Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And immediately the dog ran and entered in, and rushed into the midst of them that were with Simon, and lifted up his forefeet and in a loud voice said: Thou Simon, Peter the servant of Christ who standeth at the door saith unto thee: Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou most wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And when Simon heard it, and beheld the incredible sight, he lost the words wherewith he was deceiving them that stood by, and all of them were amazed. (The Acts of Peter, 9)
Reply
#17
RE: Something for nothing
(September 11, 2021 at 12:25 pm)Jehanne Wrote:
(September 11, 2021 at 12:16 pm)polymath257 Wrote: It's wrong. Energy usage of the US is about 93 quadrillion BTUs a year, which amounts to just less than 10^20 Joules per year. The solar constant is 1.361*10^3 Joules per square meter per second. That gives about 4*10^10 Joules per square meter per year. Dividing the two, we see that (capturing *every* photon) would take about 2.5*10^9 square meters, which is a square that is 50 kilometers on a side.

Now, efficiency and hours of daylight increase this, but it is still a long way from the total area of the US.

We use a trillion watts on average, right?

(September 11, 2021 at 12:25 pm)polymath257 Wrote: Nope. that is in square *meters*, not square kilometers. So, a 50km by 50km area would do it.

Yep, I messed up.

And, so, a 50 km by 50 km array is completely doable!

Because of efficiency and the fact that the sun isn't always up (so we don't get the full solar constant all the time), it would be more than that. But it is still a LOT less than the total area of even one medium sized state.
Reply
#18
RE: Something for nothing
(September 11, 2021 at 12:31 pm)polymath257 Wrote: Because of efficiency and the fact that the sun isn't always up (so we don't get the full solar constant all the time), it would be more than that. But it is still a LOT less than the total area of even one medium sized state.

Um, the sun is always "up" somewhere on earth.
Why is it so?
~Julius Sumner Miller
Reply
#19
RE: Something for nothing
(September 11, 2021 at 12:33 pm)Spongebob Wrote:
(September 11, 2021 at 12:31 pm)polymath257 Wrote: Because of efficiency and the fact that the sun isn't always up (so we don't get the full solar constant all the time), it would be more than that. But it is still a LOT less than the total area of even one medium sized state.

Um, the sun is always "up" somewhere on earth.

Greetings, comrade.
And without delay Peter went quickly out of the synagogue (assembly) and went unto the house of Marcellus, where Simon lodged: and much people followed him...And Peter turned unto the people that followed him and said: Ye shall now see a great and marvellous wonder. And Peter seeing a great dog bound with a strong chain, went to him and loosed him, and when he was loosed the dog received a man's voice and said unto Peter: What dost thou bid me to do, thou servant of the unspeakable and living God? Peter said unto him: Go in and say unto Simon in the midst of his company: Peter saith unto thee, Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And immediately the dog ran and entered in, and rushed into the midst of them that were with Simon, and lifted up his forefeet and in a loud voice said: Thou Simon, Peter the servant of Christ who standeth at the door saith unto thee: Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou most wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And when Simon heard it, and beheld the incredible sight, he lost the words wherewith he was deceiving them that stood by, and all of them were amazed. (The Acts of Peter, 9)
Reply
#20
RE: Something for nothing
I suppose this is what OLB would like everyone to be driving...

[Image: ZYERE3WIEYI6TJTLIBWI6S7HAY.jpg]
Why is it so?
~Julius Sumner Miller
Reply



Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  The really real Something For Nothing no one 1 147 September 12, 2021 at 5:50 pm
Last Post: BrianSoddingBoru4
  Pizza, just bit the bullet, trying something new. Brian37 19 706 June 14, 2021 at 11:58 am
Last Post: brewer
  It’s Christmas so say something nice The Valkyrie 16 1117 December 19, 2019 at 9:03 pm
Last Post: no one
  When someone says something really stupid. Cod 8 1098 July 28, 2019 at 7:35 am
Last Post: BrianSoddingBoru4
  If you see something, say something Foxaire 24 1298 February 1, 2019 at 3:32 pm
Last Post: Shell B
  Something Great Happened To Me Today... ReptilianPeon 2 563 October 2, 2018 at 12:54 pm
Last Post: ReptilianPeon
  The thread about nothing. Gawdzilla Sama 34 1080 July 30, 2018 at 5:08 pm
Last Post: brewer
  Something young kids today will never understand Foxaire 114 6912 June 2, 2018 at 10:15 pm
Last Post: Little lunch
Tongue Something old people today will never understand ignoramus 34 2209 June 2, 2018 at 3:06 pm
Last Post: The Valkyrie
  Should I say something next time? GODZILLA 9 1117 May 27, 2018 at 10:43 am
Last Post: brewer



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)