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J.J. Thompson's Violinist Thought Experiment Concerning Abortion
#21
RE: J.J. Thompson's Violinist Thought Experiment Concerning Abortion
(December 29, 2021 at 11:59 am)Helios Wrote:
(December 29, 2021 at 10:04 am)Mermaid Wrote: Yeah. Another discussion by a bunch of men about what women should and should not to do with their bodies. Super.

This thought experiment is nothing earth-shattering. There is nothing more yours than your body and we must maintain the legal rights to do whatever the fuck we choose to do with it. You choose to stay hooked up with the violinist? Great. You choose not to? Your right. Period. End of sentence.

You choose to abort an embryo/fetus that is unable to survive without using your body? Your choice. Your uterus. Period. End of sentence. You choose to carry the pregnancy? Again: Your uterus, your life, your choice. Period.
To be fair J.J. Thompson's technically started the conversation and she is very much a women

My humble apologies then. I'll have my crow done medium well please.
If The Flintstones have taught us anything, it's that pelicans can be used to mix cement.

-Homer Simpson
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#22
RE: J.J. Thompson's Violinist Thought Experiment Concerning Abortion
Does a female making an anti abortion argument make that argument any more compelling, so that a person would have to eat crow in that event, as well?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#23
RE: J.J. Thompson's Violinist Thought Experiment Concerning Abortion
(December 29, 2021 at 3:27 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Does a female making an anti abortion argument make that argument any more compelling, so that a person would have to eat crow in that event, as well?

Not more compelling, but at least women have the first hand perspective.
If The Flintstones have taught us anything, it's that pelicans can be used to mix cement.

-Homer Simpson
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#24
RE: J.J. Thompson's Violinist Thought Experiment Concerning Abortion
That's the disconnect - I think. Men and women both have the first hand perspective, and in equal measure, to any argument for or against abortion.

Because it's not about being pregant, or about babbies, or about personal choices related to being pregnant with babby, or whether you swing richard or haul vaj.... but what we're okay with doing to pregnant people. Hell, with respect to the state of affairs between a pregnant couple and what positions they occupy, we're only doing it half "right"...now, anyway. We're no longer okay with strapping women to gurneys but we are okay with strapping men to children. For good reason, from the pov of the state and the pov of the child - but that argument is equivalent to any good reason argument to strap the women to the children, too.

In that, I think we make it easy for malcontents on either side to object - essentially perpetuating the disagreement.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#25
RE: J.J. Thompson's Violinist Thought Experiment Concerning Abortion
I agree with Nudge. Anyone can consider the moral implications surrounding the act.

This particular moral dilemma is so politically charged, however, the question has been reduced to "Can we coerce women to do x?" In this environment it's easy disallow men from entering the conversation. So I understand Mermaid's point. But, at the fundamental ethical level, the question has nothing to do with coercion, politics, or any of that. A woman, sitting in a hospital bed alone may consider the question for herself... without any regard to potential political coercion.
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#26
RE: J.J. Thompson's Violinist Thought Experiment Concerning Abortion
A woman who wants an abortion is going to have one; there is not a damn thing that anyone can do to stop her. The only question is whether her procedure will be medically safe or not.
And without delay Peter went quickly out of the synagogue (assembly) and went unto the house of Marcellus, where Simon lodged: and much people followed him...And Peter turned unto the people that followed him and said: Ye shall now see a great and marvellous wonder. And Peter seeing a great dog bound with a strong chain, went to him and loosed him, and when he was loosed the dog received a man's voice and said unto Peter: What dost thou bid me to do, thou servant of the unspeakable and living God? Peter said unto him: Go in and say unto Simon in the midst of his company: Peter saith unto thee, Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And immediately the dog ran and entered in, and rushed into the midst of them that were with Simon, and lifted up his forefeet and in a loud voice said: Thou Simon, Peter the servant of Christ who standeth at the door saith unto thee: Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou most wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And when Simon heard it, and beheld the incredible sight, he lost the words wherewith he was deceiving them that stood by, and all of them were amazed. (The Acts of Peter, 9)
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#27
RE: J.J. Thompson's Violinist Thought Experiment Concerning Abortion
(December 30, 2021 at 8:15 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote:  A woman, sitting in a hospital bed alone may consider the question for herself... without any regard to potential political coercion.

...can she?  Only in a world where no one is contemplating what they would do to her on account of it.  Not this world.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#28
RE: J.J. Thompson's Violinist Thought Experiment Concerning Abortion
(December 31, 2021 at 9:31 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote:
(December 30, 2021 at 8:15 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote:  A woman, sitting in a hospital bed alone may consider the question for herself... without any regard to potential political coercion.

...can she?  Only in a world where no one is contemplating what they would do to her on account of it.  Not this world.

Sure she can. Even in this world.

She can say to herself, "These assholes outside the hospital room want to control my body. And they have all kinds of 'moral' justifications for their efforts. Sure. But the fact is, the rightness or wrongness of the act is independent of their coercive efforts."

Look at it this way: I smoke pot. Have for years. I grew up in a time when there was a mild moral stigma attached to it (small town Appalachia). At one point I weighed the moral implications of smoking pot for myself. I found that there was nothing morally wrong with the act... despite its legal status.... despite the attitudes, intentions, or coercive efforts of those around me. 

Women can do much the same concerning abortion. Anyone can do much the same concerning any moral reflection concerning any moral act. In fact, I consider dismissing social norms and mores for what they are STEP ONE for any genuine contemplation of ethics concerning an issue.
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#29
RE: J.J. Thompson's Violinist Thought Experiment Concerning Abortion
(January 3, 2022 at 8:31 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote:
(December 31, 2021 at 9:31 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: ...can she?  Only in a world where no one is contemplating what they would do to her on account of it.  Not this world.

Sure she can. Even in this world.

She can say to herself, "These assholes outside the hospital room want to control my body. And they have all kinds of 'moral' justifications for their efforts. Sure. But this fact is, the rightness or wrongness of the act is independent of their coercive efforts."

Look at it this way: I smoke pot. Have for years. I grew up in a time when there was a mild moral stigma attached too it (small town Appalachia). At one point I weighed the moral implications of smoking pot for myself. I found that there was nothing morally wrong with the act... despite its legal status.... despite the attitudes, intentions, or coercive efforts of those around me. 

Women can do much the same concerning abortion.
Anyone can do much the same concerning any moral reflection concerning any moral act. In fact, I consider dismissing social norms and mores for what they are STEP ONE for any genuine contemplation of ethics concerning an issue.

I think that medical abortions are more complicated than a person making 'individual' moral decisions. Yes, the woman can morally decide 'I want an abortion', but after that a whole complex system becomes involved in the abortion process (legal, medical, financial,....) and it involves other individuals who may or may not take positions/actions based on her choice.

Making the choice is just the first step.
I don't have an anger problem, I have an idiot problem




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#30
RE: J.J. Thompson's Violinist Thought Experiment Concerning Abortion
(January 3, 2022 at 9:33 pm)brewer Wrote: Making the choice is just the first step.

But, really, what I'm interested in comes prior to the step of making the choice. I'm talking about determining (as best you can) whether something is right or wrong. (Both/neither may also be good answers. Who knows?) But in every case, determination comes prior to choosing. The choice made doesn't always reflect the ethical determination made. A person can decide it's morally wrong to cheat on their wife... and then do it anyway. Likewise, they may decide it's morally acceptable to cheat on her, and then decide not too.

The ethical determination is independent even from what choice is made. Just like it's independent from the surrounding coercive social environment. It's like a math problem. You do it on scrap paper, and then what you write on the test --ie. choose-- is what has real world consequences.
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